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Wisconsin - President Obama In Wisconsin

16 posts
  1. Ronald Kirkman
    Ronald Kirkman avatar
    42 posts
    6/6/2012 8:06 AM
    Gentlemen & Ladies;

    If President Obama were to visit Wisconsin, do you think the vote would have had a different outcome?

    What was the reason the President stayed away? What effect will this win in Wisconsin have on the rest of the country?

    Not looking for an argument just your thoughts and we can be civil about it.

    Thanks

    Capt. Kirk
    Retired Alien
    Needham Golf Club
    Needham, MA



  2. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    6/6/2012 9:06 AM
    Ronald Kirkman said: Gentlemen & Ladies;

    If President Obama were to visit Wisconsin, do you think the vote would have had a different outcome?


    Capt. Kirk
    Retired Alien
    Needham Golf Club
    Needham, MA


    Yes. Walker would have one by an even larger margin. Too bad for Obama there are no Hollywood stars in Wisconsin willing to host him for dinner.



  3. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/6/2012 10:06 AM
    Capt.

    I don't know why the president stayed away when he won the state in 2008, and even with yesterday's outcome, I have heard from the talking heads it didn't turn it into a swing state.

    I can guess that there would have been some political risk, plus maybe he stayed out of it since it is a state issue? Besides when President Clinton visited, that should have been a bigger boost, then President Obama would have provided.

    What I don't understand was all the outside money that was pumped into the state for the election, $60 something million plus? Heck that could have paid for all the teachers that were laid off. According to the channel I watch, the top 4 out of state donors where all right leaning political action groups, with the next 3 unions. What are they really getting out of the deal?

    As this proceeds further, I believe some other Republican governors in states like Florida, Indiana and Ohio will try to push even more then they have, but they might be a little more careful because those are swing states for 2012. I think the Ohio governor had tried some of the same of those tactics and got such a push back he slowed or stopped, but he might get going again after this vote.

    I think what the big issue became in Wisconsin was from what I read, the unions had already agreed to pay more into pensions, health care and the like, then the Governor decided to take away any bargaining rights. He also kept the police and fire unions out of that since they supported him. In my opinion, he had achieved what he thought was needed to fix some of the state budget issues, then decided to push for more and then also treated unions differently from each other. He took a budget issue and turned it into a political issue.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  4. Ronald Kirkman
    Ronald Kirkman avatar
    42 posts
    6/6/2012 2:06 PM
    Mel;

    Your right about the money poured into Wisconsin by the Republicans. I just might get off the Independent bandwagon and turn Democrat because the Dems never would put that kind of money into an election.

    Capt. Kirk
    Retired Alien
    Needham Golf Club
    Needham, MA 02492



  5. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    6/6/2012 3:06 PM
    Captain, their surrogates (unions) took care of that for the dems!



  6. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/6/2012 4:06 PM
    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: Captain, their surrogates (unions) took care of that for the dems!


    Sandy,

    Both sides were having money poured in, like I said before, the unions were still being out spent.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  7. Robert Crockett
    Robert Crockett avatar
    4 posts
    6/6/2012 6:06 PM
    Obama didn't go there ............cuz he was right by there.........because he knew it was a lost cause. They got SMART. Clinton is going to stab Obama in the back ....because Obama pulled the race card on him before he was elected.... Look it up...totally Civil...I'm just telling the Truth



  8. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    6/6/2012 7:06 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: Capt.

    He took a budget issue and turned it into a political issue.

    Mel


    [size=150">Huh? [/size">Of course the budget is a political issue...



  9. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/6/2012 10:06 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: Capt.

    He took a budget issue and turned it into a political issue.

    Mel


    [size=150">Huh? [/size">Of course the budget is a political issue...


    I say he turned it into a political issue because after he got from the unions what he wanted to help the budget, then he took the union's power away hurting their membership levels, which in turn will hurt the amount of money they can contribute to the political parties. The democratic party taking the bigger hit. Creating an unfair money advantage. My opinion.

    Of course politics plays the part in any budget issue, take a look at a typical golf facility. All parties are trying to get what they can for their department. Good facilities work together to the betterment of the facility. Right now politicians do not work together for the betterment of their constituents.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  10. Dennis Cook
    Dennis Cook avatar
    1 posts
    6/7/2012 5:06 AM
    Mel, the only one having an unfair money advantage was the unions. They had mandates in place that said you must be part of it and your dues must be automatically taken and given to the unions so they can dole it out to democrats.

    I don't really care how much money is spent on any election. This is a free country so quit your griping. All this election money goes to the private sector where it can help our economy and trickle through to more people. It wasnt about money, its about message and Walker has a good message, "Stop union greed and the strangle hold they have on the public sector." I like that message and apparently many others do to.

    Some unions in Wisconsin have lost 50% of their members because they no longer are required to participate. Thats a bold statement that many of their members felt they got no benefit from them at all. Unions are not needed in this country anymore, our working conditions and pay are better than most of the world. Training programs are everywhere for people to learn the trades and many people would like to negotiate their own salary structure. They want to be relevant so they can continue to railroad every entity they work in by using their power. Well those days are done, at least in Wisconsins public sector and the state will be better for it.

    Oh yea and Obama did not go to Wisconsin because their internal polling tells them to stay away from every important election or they will hurt the chances of the democrat being elected.



  11. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    6/7/2012 5:06 AM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: Capt.

    He took a budget issue and turned it into a political issue.

    Mel


    [size=150">Huh? [/size">Of course the budget is a political issue...


    I say he turned it into a political issue because after he got from the unions what he wanted to help the budget, then he took the union's power away hurting their membership levels, which in turn will hurt the amount of money they can contribute to the political parties. The democratic party taking the bigger hit. Creating an unfair money advantage. My opinion.

    Of course politics plays the part in any budget issue, take a look at a typical golf facility. All parties are trying to get what they can for their department. Good facilities work together to the betterment of the facility. Right now politicians do not work together for the betterment of their constituents.

    Mel


    Come on Mel. You're reaching, a lot. The unions are nothing more than their own super PAC. Any person can contribute to any super PAC. Therefore, no person is restricted in anyway.



  12. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    6/7/2012 7:06 AM
    Have no idea if he had actively campaigned or not if it would have mattered. But I do think he stayed away for his own well being (his re-election). Had he come and the outcome had turned out as it did it would not have helped him at all. He carried the state in 2008, do not know by what margin but I think he figured watching from a distance was a safer bet for him. I do think what happened on Tuesday puts Wisconsin into the swing state category.



  13. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/7/2012 11:06 AM
    So Dennis and Clay, are you saying it's ok for some rich guy to give money to a political party trying to curry favor for their benefit but not the unions? Or for businesses to donate money or not unions, which is essentially a business?

    I'm not a big union fan, but if there is support for them and people want to belong that's fine. But to treat a union differently just because they will support one party, that would not be fair unless you treat all contributors the same regardless of the party they support. (Actually if I remember correctly the police and fire unions backed Walker during the election in 2010.......I wonder if that is why they were not affected or not forced to follow the same rules as the other unions?)

    If businesses treated people with respect and allowed them to share in the fruits of their labor (and I don't even mean profit sharing or salaries, there are plenty of other ways to show appreciation) , unions would have never taken off in the first place.

    Are you guys encouraging us to go back to the early 1900's?

    Quite honestly I'm disgusted with the amount of money being spent on politics on both sides. Why not donate that money to medical research, providing meals to the poor, supplementing education, a much better use for that money.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  14. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    6/7/2012 3:06 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: So Dennis and Clay, are you saying it's ok for some rich guy to give money to a political party trying to curry favor for their benefit but not the unions? Or for businesses to donate money or not unions, which is essentially a business?

    I'm not a big union fan, but if there is support for them and people want to belong that's fine. But to treat a union differently just because they will support one party, that would not be fair unless you treat all contributors the same regardless of the party they support. (Actually if I remember correctly the police and fire unions backed Walker during the election in 2010.......I wonder if that is why they were not affected or not forced to follow the same rules as the other unions?)

    If businesses treated people with respect and allowed them to share in the fruits of their labor (and I don't even mean profit sharing or salaries, there are plenty of other ways to show appreciation) , unions would have never taken off in the first place.

    Are you guys encouraging us to go back to the early 1900's?

    Quite honestly I'm disgusted with the amount of money being spent on politics on both sides. Why not donate that money to medical research, providing meals to the poor, supplementing education, a much better use for that money.

    Mel


    Mel,

    Apparently I'm a failure at communicating because you're hearing exactly what I'm not saying.

    Let's try this a different way - I am in no way suggesting unions should be treated differently than anyone or anything else, as it relates to campaign donations. You suggested unions are deprived of giving donations due to a lesser number of unions members. I then said that unions are a quasi-super PAC. Any person, union member or non-union member, can contribute to the "unions guy". A smaller union does not preclude non-union members from contributing to the union's choice of a candidate. Therefore the union is not at a disadvantage. How that translates into going back to 1900 is above my pay grade.



  15. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/7/2012 4:06 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: So Dennis and Clay, are you saying it's ok for some rich guy to give money to a political party trying to curry favor for their benefit but not the unions? Or for businesses to donate money or not unions, which is essentially a business?

    I'm not a big union fan, but if there is support for them and people want to belong that's fine. But to treat a union differently just because they will support one party, that would not be fair unless you treat all contributors the same regardless of the party they support. (Actually if I remember correctly the police and fire unions backed Walker during the election in 2010.......I wonder if that is why they were not affected or not forced to follow the same rules as the other unions?)

    If businesses treated people with respect and allowed them to share in the fruits of their labor (and I don't even mean profit sharing or salaries, there are plenty of other ways to show appreciation) , unions would have never taken off in the first place.

    Are you guys encouraging us to go back to the early 1900's?

    Quite honestly I'm disgusted with the amount of money being spent on politics on both sides. Why not donate that money to medical research, providing meals to the poor, supplementing education, a much better use for that money.

    Mel


    Mel,

    Apparently I'm a failure at communicating because you're hearing exactly what I'm not saying.

    Let's try this a different way - I am in no way suggesting unions should be treated differently than anyone or anything else, as it relates to campaign donations. You suggested unions are deprived of giving donations due to a lesser number of unions members. I then said that unions are a quasi-super PAC. Any person, union member or non-union member, can contribute to the "unions guy". A smaller union does not preclude non-union members from contributing to the union's choice of a candidate. Therefore the union is not at a disadvantage. How that translates into going back to 1900 is above my pay grade.


    My mistake Clay, trying to lump your and Dennis's comments in the same post. Dennis commented on the unfair money advantage the unions had. I kind of like your analogy except, unless non-union members donate to the unions money to use for their political contributions, the unions are basically disclosing who is supporting their super pac as you call it. The mostly conservative super pacs do not. Heck even Steven Colbert revealed who contributed to his super pac.

    As for the early 1900's comment, I was referring to how big business treated employees, in general, they held all the advantages. Also back then there was probably no middle class or how we think of one now. Seems to a degree we are trying to move back in that direction when busting up the unions. I honestly don't think the unions have the power they did for a couple of reasons, the mob isn't probably as involved, and the federal government has put in work rules such as 40 hour weeks, minimum wage, safety rules/OSHA, and other agencies that can help protect the workers from being taken advantage of, so really what ever the unions ask for is gravy for them, that is just an opinion. And also they don't really hold a lot of political clout compared to some of these conservative groups, so I don't know what the big deal is going after the unions so hard. I would think union leaders and members are smart enough to see the big picture. They did here in Springfield and worked together for the betterment of all, (I know starting to sound like a broken record, but it seems not everyone gets my point that things can get accomplished working together.)

    I could go on and talk about what I think unions have done to help us in the middle class with benefits and wages, but I would be just spouting some theories since I haven't really studied or investigated what I think they are.

    But the main fact still doesn't change, there is too much money in politics, and I just can't believe we don't do something good with it....Does any side that contributes millions of dollars really get that big of an advantage if policies go their way? I guess that is above my pay grade to see that. Maybe we ought to bring back the tax rates from the 50's, I bet we could get our infrastructure problems solved. (hey which one of these smilies is the tongue in cheek one?)

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  16. Dennis Cook
    Dennis Cook avatar
    1 posts
    6/8/2012 6:06 AM
    Mel, previously the unions did have an unfair advantage because they mandated that people join and that dues were automatically deducted. Business have to earn their money to donate to political figures, unions take it, whether the person wants to be a member or not. Obviously by the number of people quitting their unions people dont agree with how the unions do it.

    Mel, I think the unions should be able to donate as money as they want and so should a business, but unions never give their members the opportunity to voice their opinion on how to use the money. A consumer has the right to not participate with a business if they dont like their politics. A union member does not. The union takes away the freedom of the individual in that instance. A conservative union member cannot say that he wants a portion of his dues to go to Romney, they would laugh at him



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