Otterbine fountian electrical issues Cancel The title field is required!

1. Price Mark A

   
   7/7/2017 9:07 AM

   We have two small(5 hp or less) Otterbine fountains. Both are around 2 yrs old and still have a warranty left on them. One works great. the other one trips the GFI instantly when the power is turned on. My boss called a certified licensed electrician out. He checked all the voltages and GFI out and said our problem was in the power cord going out to the fountain. We rented a trencher and ran a new line (40 or so feet) buried it in PVC conduit. Hooked everything back up and had the same problem. To double check our work we disconnected the fountain and the GFI didn't trip. We thought there was a issue with the fountain and still being under warranty called the Toro distributor that sells/services Otterbine. After having it several weeks said there was nothing wrong with it and brought it back. We hooked it up again and still pops the GFI instantly when the power is turned on. So I thought maybe there was a issue in the flexible cable that plugs in the fountain and runs through the lake to the junction box on the shore. There is a 3M water tite splice connecting the cable to the short pigtail to the fountain. I cut the spice out and wired the fountain directly to the junction box on the shore and it still trips the GFI. I think there is still a problem with the fountain itself but now can't seem to reach our local distributor. I am really wondering now if it just set there for 3 weeks and was never looked at. These issues have gone on for 4 months and we still do not have it in the water. This is really frustrating. We had a failure with a irrigation pump we pulled and fixed ourselves and did not have near this many problems and it was more complicated than a little fountain too. Is there any Superintendents or Equipment Managers out there that have had fountain issues like this?
   Mark Price
   Equipment Manager
   Country Club of Leawood
   Leawood, Kansas 66209
   913 963 6764

   
   
   
   
2. Wade Borthwick

   

   0 posts
   
   7/10/2017 11:07 AM

   Do you use dielectric grease in the connections? We had one do the same thing, kept tripping the breaker, tested cables, have pumps serviced every three years. Electrician came by had me clean the contacts, plugged it in worked great. Another thing is if it has sat for a while, [u">before[/u"> plugging it in give the turbine a spin by hand.

   
   
   
   
3. Joshua Sawyer

   

   0 posts
   
   7/11/2017 12:07 PM

   We have similar units...once water breaks the seal in the motor it will act like this. We either have failures in the wire (muskrats/beavers chewing), water at the connection (as mentioned...dielectric grease) or water in the motor. Isolate the issue just as you did to see if its in the wire or in the motor. Good luck.

   
   
   
   
4. Kurt Lading

   

   0 posts
   
   7/11/2017 1:07 PM

   I would quit working on them damn fountains and work on something red or green.

   
   
   
   
5. Price Mark A

   
   7/12/2017 9:07 AM

   I have been told by others that a GFCI is good for 80% of its rated value. Our magnetic starter is set at 16 amps and this particular GFCI Hubbell #GFSM120A is rated at 15 amps. So at 80% roughly is around 12 amps plus if it has tripped several times I am told that it could weaken it. I have ordered a new GFCI and it should arrive on Friday. I will keep you all posted if this fixes it.
   
   Oh Kurt Lading get out of the shop from time to time and help your Superintendent out to solve some of his problems out on the course

   
   
   
   
6. James Smith

   

   113 posts
   
   7/19/2017 10:07 AM

   any way to hook the problem fountain up to the good ones connection and vice versa?
   
   I hate water fountains!!!! I have had to fight the battle with them for about 8 years even though I told my club our ponds are not deep enough for them. 2'-3' deep max. If you get even a little nick in the line it could trip the GFCI. a little water into the wiring connection or motor and it will trip. the only way not to trip is to have it out of the pond dry. if you have this and it trips something is wrong inside the motor.
   
   Is yours single phase? 115 or 220? 3 wire or 4?
   
   I have had the 220's with these issues and it always ended up being in the connector or motor. we did have an issue with Nutria rats eating on our cables and started wrapping them with metal shields which solved that problem. my 115's I could never get to work with GFCI's and had to wire them without it. they did not last long because they were too long for our shallow ponds.

   
   
   
   
7. James Smith

   

   113 posts
   
   7/19/2017 10:07 AM

   Mark A Price said: I have been told by others that a GFCI is good for 80% of its rated value. Our magnetic starter is set at 16 amps and this particular GFCI Hubbell #GFSM120A is rated at 15 amps. So at 80% roughly is around 12 amps plus if it has tripped several times I am told that it could weaken it. I have ordered a new GFCI and it should arrive on Friday. I will keep you all posted if this fixes it.
   
   Oh Kurt Lading get out of the shop from time to time and help your Superintendent out to solve some of his problems out on the course

   
   
   Just wanted to say that you can use an amp meter (the meters with the pinchers on the top) clamped over the line in the box and see what type of draw is happening after switching it on, before it trips. it may be possible that one line is drawing more than the other and throwing the breaker off balance. if that's the case the issue is in the motor.
   both lines should be within two the three amps of each other max. and this is only if you have a 220v pump (double throw breaker)

   
   
   
   
8. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   7/19/2017 10:07 AM

   Mark A Price said: I have been told by others that a GFCI is good for 80% of its rated value. Our magnetic starter is set at 16 amps and this particular GFCI Hubbell #GFSM120A is rated at 15 amps. So at 80% roughly is around 12 amps plus if it has tripped several times I am told that it could weaken it. I have ordered a new GFCI and it should arrive on Friday. I will keep you all posted if this fixes it.
   
   Oh Kurt Lading get out of the shop from time to time and help your Superintendent out to solve some of his problems out on the course

   
   
   This is true. Same with breakers. But you really need to know what start up load is on the motor as it will be higher than run load.
   
   A few things can trip a GFCI. 1) being a short in the water that is touching ground, 2) a bad capacitor in the motor, or 3) your motor drawing more amps than what the GFCI can handle. The motor could also be locked up which means more amp draw.
   
   Either way if the local distributor can't figure it out, call Otterbine direct. At the very least they can put some heat on the distributor to get you fixed.

   
   
   
   
9. James Smith

   

   113 posts
   
   7/20/2017 8:07 AM

   Andy Jorgensen said:

   Mark A Price said: I have been told by others that a GFCI is good for 80% of its rated value. Our magnetic starter is set at 16 amps and this particular GFCI Hubbell #GFSM120A is rated at 15 amps. So at 80% roughly is around 12 amps plus if it has tripped several times I am told that it could weaken it. I have ordered a new GFCI and it should arrive on Friday. I will keep you all posted if this fixes it.
   
   Oh Kurt Lading get out of the shop from time to time and help your Superintendent out to solve some of his problems out on the course

   
   
   This is true. Same with breakers. But you really need to know what start up load is on the motor as it will be higher than run load.
   
   A few things can trip a GFCI. 1) being a short in the water that is touching ground, 2) a bad capacitor in the motor, or 3) your motor drawing more amps than what the GFCI can handle. The motor could also be locked up which means more amp draw.
   
   Either way if the local distributor can't figure it out, call Otterbine direct. At the very least they can put some heat on the distributor to get you fixed.

   
   
   Just to add, an uneven draw between load wires can trip the breaker but generally it is the breaker that trips and not the gfci part. so if all you are doing is resetting the breaker and not pushing back in the small button you would have a motor issue.
   
   Andy mentioned the capacitor and I wanted to say that my capacitors were located in my panel box and if one went bad it would also trip my GFCI. It would be easy to check as you could just swap one from the other box into that box.

   
   
   
   
10. Price Mark A

    
    7/20/2017 10:07 AM

    UPDATE 7/20/2017
    
    Thanks to all that replied and called me. As of 10am CST the fountain has run a full 24 hours without a problem. Yea!! This is what we had done.. Replaced the wiring from the electrical control box out to the junction box on the shore. The electrician we originally hired said it was bad. Next we pulled the fountain and sent it in so Otterbine would check it and test it. Next we replaced the GFCI in which is separate from the breaker and is wired to the magnetic starrer. Last was the Toro/ Otterbine guy came over and brought his 100 foot electrical cord and suggested that I wire it direct to the breaker that feeds the control panel. Flip the breaker on and it worked. I thought that my cord was bad so I took the cord out to the junction box on the shore and wired everything up like normal and the GFCI tripped instantly and so fast the amp meter could not get a good reading. So knew what we had replaced and questioned what the electrician had done. Sure enough a Hot wire and Neutral were switched where it comes in from the main breaker. I am assuming the Electrician was either sloppy or he sabotaged the wiring so we would call him back out to do the whole job. So the lesson learned here is watch who you call out and ask other Golf Clubs for recommendations on who they use.
    I really wonder what the failed component was...The outside wiring? The GFCI? or a loose connection in the control panel that the electrician seen but could charge a lot to fix so condemned the outside wiring. I hope this might help someone else that has a fountain issues. Thanks again for everyone that offered up help.
    
    Mark Price
    Equipment Manager
    Country Club of Leawood