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Wouldn't this be businesses bigger problem?

11 posts
  1. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/14/2012 12:06 PM
    Thought this might be the best place for it, since it could be debated as a policy.

    Was in our local irrigation parts supply house yesterday to get a couple of items, since they didn't have everything I needed, I took the few little parts I did and paid for it with my city purchase card. Nice to have, less paperwork in the long run, and I was being the good little public servant getting just want I needed and a couple of spares. Came out the $3.61. The manager mentioned there went their profit, it seems on minimal charges there are higher fees. He said American Express is the worst on the percentage they charge and if it's under $10, they charge 91% of the charge as a fee. He says he has friends who own truck stops and they really try to incentives the truckers to pay cash because of how much credit card fees they are paying.

    Here because of debit cards and such I know I hardly ever buy anything with cash. I'm lucky enough to have any cash as our finance manager always reminds me. And having to prepay for gas now a-days makes it tough, before I could go in and pull out $30 out of the ATM machine, fill up and keep the change as my allowance (remember I still have my little Honda Civic, so unless I get it down to E, I can still fill up for under $30).

    To stop this long story, my question, observation, etc. is....Isn't this killing small business more then anything? Who is really profiting from this? And who do we blame or shouldn't we fix this? Wouldn't a regulation on the amount that gets charged help small business? Now that I think about it, wasn't this something the president tried to do earlier? And then the banks were raising new fees and stuff on regular customers until people started moving their business to banks that didn't charge?

    I know each side is going to have their side of the story, but when you present it could you explain it instead of spewing the Bear Soap that politicians on both sides are?

    Thanks, Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  2. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    6/14/2012 4:06 PM
    Mel,

    The card services company and the credit card company make the profit off credit card and debt card fees. Generally, debt cards are less expensive, for the retailer, than are credit cards until the charge gets to, about, $15. The fees then balance out once the charge gets to $15.

    The fees are usually in the 1.5% to 3% range, depends on the merchant service provider. This is not a business killer unless the retailer is working off extremely low margins. Credit card fees are waaaay down on the list of business killers. Ridiculous regulations kill small business.

    It's not uncommon for some retailers to offer discounts for paying cash. Some other retailers have a minimum purchase policy to use a credit card.

    Who's fault is this? That's a very progressive/liberal question of you. It's nobody's fault. Its capitalism. There are a ton of merchant service companies so the competition will keep the fees in check. We don't need to regulate these fees. And by the way, American Express has the most expensive credit card fees. That's why AMEX is not accepted at a lot of retail locations. That there is another example of capitalism.



  3. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/16/2012 6:06 PM
    I have to admit Clay that I am not really knowledgeable about how all this works, so bare with me.

    Now when we are talking about the credit card companies that the business is paying a fee to, is it the same credit card bank or company that I make my purchase with? So they make money from the merchant and from me if I don't pay off my bill completely? Aren't they making enough money off of me? I know they are taking the risk on me in-case I don't pay my bill, and I agree to pay interest since I am basically borrowing their money, but why should the merchant have to pay a percentage? I could maybe see a transaction fee, but to charge a percentage? Heck on a $500 dollar TV, the merchant at 3% would pay $15 of their profit just to get money from the card holder? If you sell one TV a day, a mom and pop or small business it could really hurt. The big box stores of course could absorb it easier. I do wonder could a big retailer demand a better rate then a mom and pop or small business?

    As I thought about it though, could as you call them merchant service providers, are these just stand alone companies that are gathering money from the different credit card companies and banks that customers are using to give to the merchant? Why would these companies exists? All they are doing is moving money around and making money while providing really no value or service. I'm just wondering, like I said, as I thought of it, I'm not really as knowledgeable about these things as I should be, but I think we try to make things a lot more complicated then it should be.

    I would like to hear what you call ridiculous regulations that are what is killing business. I hear it all the time from the right, but I never hear what exactly they are? If I knew what they are, heck you might get me to agree with you.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  4. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    6/16/2012 9:06 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: Clay-------bare with me.

    Mel


    Clay,

    I'm pretty sure Mel isn't asking you to get naked with him.

    And since I've already rudely hijacked this thread, do you guys remember about 9 or 10 years ago when there was a "ranking" on number of posts? (For you youngsters, that was around 17 forum revisions ago.) Mel, you and that gator wrasslin' Cajun Dave are nearly in a dead heat. Just some forum trivia.

    "And we now return to our regularly scheduled discussion regarding credit cards."



  5. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    6/17/2012 1:06 AM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: I have to admit Clay that I am not really knowledgeable about how all this works, so bare with me.

    Now when we are talking about the credit card companies that the business is paying a fee to, is it the same credit card bank or company that I make my purchase with? So they make money from the merchant and from me if I don't pay off my bill completely? Aren't they making enough money off of me? I know they are taking the risk on me in-case I don't pay my bill, and I agree to pay interest since I am basically borrowing their money, but why should the merchant have to pay a percentage? I could maybe see a transaction fee, but to charge a percentage? Heck on a $500 dollar TV, the merchant at 3% would pay $15 of their profit just to get money from the card holder? If you sell one TV a day, a mom and pop or small business it could really hurt. The big box stores of course could absorb it easier. I do wonder could a big retailer demand a better rate then a mom and pop or small business?

    As I thought about it though, could as you call them merchant service providers, are these just stand alone companies that are gathering money from the different credit card companies and banks that customers are using to give to the merchant? Why would these companies exists? All they are doing is moving money around and making money while providing really no value or service. I'm just wondering, like I said, as I thought of it, I'm not really as knowledgeable about these things as I should be, but I think we try to make things a lot more complicated then it should be.

    I would like to hear what you call ridiculous regulations that are what is killing business. I hear it all the time from the right, but I never hear what exactly they are? If I knew what they are, heck you might get me to agree with you.

    Mel


    Mel,

    The merchant service company makes the lion's share of the fees. The merchant service companies (MSC) are middlemen, so to speak. The MSC provide the service for the transaction to occur between the retailer and the credit company and banks. A processing company, if you will. Kinda like a stock broker purchasing/selling stocks on your behalf.

    Why do they exist? The same reason there are manufacturers, wholesalers, distributors, retailers, and consumers. The manufacturer could cut out all the middlemen and sell directly to the consumer, right? This seems reasonable, right?. It would cut out all the middlemen expense, right? And we could buy products less expensive, right? The problems are the manufacturers are not equipped to distribute, wholesale, and retail. The manufacturers do not want to be in the wholesale, distribution, and retail businesses. Additionally, imagine all the jobs we would be eliminating if we cut out all the wholesalers, distributors, and retailers. Imagine all the construction jobs that would be lost because there would be no need for retail stores. Imagine all the lost lending by the banks. Imagine all the lost tax revenue because the state, county, and local would not collect tax at the wholesale, distribution, and retail level. The "trickle-down" effect is very significant. Therefore, the need for the merchant service companies.

    Ridiculous regulations. I will give you a brief example: A business owner starts a new business and it takes a few years for the business to turn a profit, not uncommon. Many times, the business owner will not take a pay check during these start up years to make sure the business stays afloat. However, the business owner pays the employees and pays the various employer taxes including unemployment tax for the employees. The owner is also required to pay unemployment tax on each owner of the business as if each owner made a minimum of $20,000 per year. Lets say there are four partners. Therefore, the business is required to pay unemployment tax as if the owners made $80,000 per year. Now lets back up and remind ourselves that the owners did not make one dime. But yet they are still required to pay into unemployment as if each owner made a minimum of $20,000. The coup de grase is the business owners cannot collect unemployment if the business folds. So why the unemployment tax on the owners that made zilch and can collect zilch?

    This example brings up another good point. You see, in the example, the business owner did not make a penny during the start up years. And it is a very real potential that the business could fold within the the first few years. The business owner put up his/her own money to start the business. The business owner secured the loans to start the business. The business owner put up his/her house, car, and any other personal asset to secure the loans to start the business. Therefore, if the business fails, the business owner loses everything. The business owner risks his/her personal assets. Yet many people look at business owners as the boogyman. I've never understood this mentality. I can only chalk it up to innocent ignorance or just plain ol' stupidity.



  6. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    6/17/2012 1:06 AM
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: Clay-------bare with me.

    Mel


    Clay,

    I'm pretty sure Mel isn't asking you to get naked with him.

    And since I've already rudely hijacked this thread, do you guys remember about 9 or 10 years ago when there was a "ranking" on number of posts? (For you youngsters, that was around 17 forum revisions ago.) Mel, you and that gator wrasslin' Cajun Dave are nearly in a dead heat. Just some forum trivia.

    "And we now return to our regularly scheduled discussion regarding credit cards."


    I'm sure Mel was merely baring his soul. Or is it sole?

    I do remember the "ranking" posts. Didn't Red start that? I'm pretty sure it was during one of those 380 foot snowfall winters when he was living off the remaining intestines of his pet chiuaua. Thank God he made it...



  7. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    6/17/2012 7:06 AM
    That's Chi-hua-hua, according to Les Nesmond



  8. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    6/17/2012 3:06 PM
    I hate chi-wah-wahs.



  9. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/17/2012 4:06 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: I have to admit Clay that I am not really knowledgeable about how all this works, so bare with me.

    Now when we are talking about the credit card companies that the business is paying a fee to, is it the same credit card bank or company that I make my purchase with? So they make money from the merchant and from me if I don't pay off my bill completely? Aren't they making enough money off of me? I know they are taking the risk on me in-case I don't pay my bill, and I agree to pay interest since I am basically borrowing their money, but why should the merchant have to pay a percentage? I could maybe see a transaction fee, but to charge a percentage? Heck on a $500 dollar TV, the merchant at 3% would pay $15 of their profit just to get money from the card holder? If you sell one TV a day, a mom and pop or small business it could really hurt. The big box stores of course could absorb it easier. I do wonder could a big retailer demand a better rate then a mom and pop or small business?

    As I thought about it though, could as you call them merchant service providers, are these just stand alone companies that are gathering money from the different credit card companies and banks that customers are using to give to the merchant? Why would these companies exists? All they are doing is moving money around and making money while providing really no value or service. I'm just wondering, like I said, as I thought of it, I'm not really as knowledgeable about these things as I should be, but I think we try to make things a lot more complicated then it should be.

    I would like to hear what you call ridiculous regulations that are what is killing business. I hear it all the time from the right, but I never hear what exactly they are? If I knew what they are, heck you might get me to agree with you.

    Mel


    Mel,

    The merchant service company makes the lion's share of the fees. The merchant service companies (MSC) are middlemen, so to speak. The MSC provide the service for the transaction to occur between the retailer and the credit company and banks. A processing company, if you will. Kinda like a stock broker purchasing/selling stocks on your behalf. I had wondered about that, in some part it makes some sense, these companies can specialize in this type of work, but my question is now, do they charge the banks as well? Why not just the banks, since they are not wanting to do that service for themselves?

    Why do they exist? The same reason there are manufacturers, wholesalers, distributors, retailers, and consumers. The manufacturer could cut out all the middlemen and sell directly to the consumer, right? This seems reasonable, right?. It would cut out all the middlemen expense, right? And we could buy products less expensive, right? The problems are the manufacturers are not equipped to distribute, wholesale, and retail. The manufacturers do not want to be in the wholesale, distribution, and retail businesses. Additionally, imagine all the jobs we would be eliminating if we cut out all the wholesalers, distributors, and retailers. Imagine all the construction jobs that would be lost because there would be no need for retail stores. Imagine all the lost lending by the banks. Imagine all the lost tax revenue because the state, county, and local would not collect tax at the wholesale, distribution, and retail level. The "trickle-down" effect is very significant. Therefore, the need for the merchant service companies. A lot of interesting points, in some cases manufacturers are doing this by internet sells, but I can see that would not work for everyone. I like the analogy of losing jobs, but isn't that a similar consequence we see when government isn't investing in infrastructure and vital services? With some of those jobs done by private sector companies? So why is it ok that we loose those jobs but not the ones you mention above?

    Ridiculous regulations. I will give you a brief example: A business owner starts a new business and it takes a few years for the business to turn a profit, not uncommon. Many times, the business owner will not take a pay check during these start up years to make sure the business stays afloat. However, the business owner pays the employees and pays the various employer taxes including unemployment tax for the employees. The owner is also required to pay unemployment tax on each owner of the business as if each owner made a minimum of $20,000 per year. Lets say there are four partners. Therefore, the business is required to pay unemployment tax as if the owners made $80,000 per year. Now lets back up and remind ourselves that the owners did not make one dime. But yet they are still required to pay into unemployment as if each owner made a minimum of $20,000. The coup de grase is the business owners cannot collect unemployment if the business folds. So why the unemployment tax on the owners that made zilch and can collect zilch? I see your point on this, and I can agree with what you are saying, if the employer is paying for the employee, why do they have to pay each owner? I see your point, and would agree to changing that charge to the owner, or at least giving them a benefit. A question I have, what if the owner had given himself a salary? Then couldn't he claim unemployment as well? I can see the answer from some on the right would say then do away with unemployment insurance, but what about businesses that fold because of poor management, those employees get thrown out into the street with nothing, also without unemployment, what might be the economic impact of not having it? It would teach us to save better, but while we are saving and need to, then we are not spending either. But I have no problem working on something to address the issue, such as owners getting unemployment benefits as well.

    This example brings up another good point. You see, in the example, the business owner did not make a penny during the start up years. And it is a very real potential that the business could fold within the the first few years. The business owner put up his/her own money to start the business. The business owner secured the loans to start the business. The business owner put up his/her house, car, and any other personal asset to secure the loans to start the business. Therefore, if the business fails, the business owner loses everything. The business owner risks his/her personal assets. Yet many people look at business owners as the boogieman. I've never understood this mentality. I can only chalk it up to innocent ignorance or just plain ol' stupidity. I agree with you this type of businessman is not the bad guy in my book either, I applaud them when they try, but it also isn't for everyone either. I know whenever I've thought about it, I then realized there is no way I can get health insurance for my family (probably not affordable, and most likely no due to pre-existing health conditions, although now I can with the Affordable Care Act).


    Thanks for the information on the merchant service providers, in some instances I can see the service they provide, but if they weren't there and the banks and merchants just worked together they could cut out that extra cost to a degree, as far as your statement about lost jobs, wouldn't the banks themselves hire those people to process payments, or the manufacture have their own fleet of trucks and such so those people are working for the manufacture of the product, or the stores that sell, of course might they not be as efficient and knowledgeable about that part of their business so it is good to hire experts, but I don't see an issue so much of job loss, the job still needs to be done. I guess when I am thinking about money being moved around the country without really seeing it moving, unlike trucks moving products and the like, that is where my comment about not seeing their value or service.

    As for your one regulation you talk about, we might see the same problem but our solutions might be different, the first question is, are we going to have unemployment benefits they need to be funded, as you showed a funding source can be a hardship on a small start-up, could that be changed? How is that cost determined? Is it based on pay rate? percentage of payroll? or some other amount? Once we know that answer we could look for a solution. Also make the change that a business owner would be eligible for unemployment insurance as well, especially if they are taking a paycheck, if they are not, then how are they surviving? How are they paying for their personal expenses? Are they taking it out of the business? Maybe that's why the business doesn't survive or that is why they don't let the owner take unemployment benefits? Just questions that I don't know the answer to but I'm sure we can come to an agreement to fix the problem. Just my opinion.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  10. Keith Pegg
    Keith Pegg avatar
    0 posts
    6/17/2012 11:06 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: Thought this might be the best place for it, since it could be debated as a policy.

    Was in our local irrigation parts supply house yesterday to get a couple of items, since they didn't have everything I needed, I took the few little parts I did and paid for it with my city purchase card. Nice to have, less paperwork in the long run, and I was being the good little public servant getting just want I needed and a couple of spares. Came out the $3.61. The manager mentioned there went their profit, it seems on minimal charges there are higher fees. He said American Express is the worst on the percentage they charge and if it's under $10, they charge 91% of the charge as a fee. He says he has friends who own truck stops and they really try to incentives the truckers to pay cash because of how much credit card fees they are paying.

    Here because of debit cards and such I know I hardly ever buy anything with cash. I'm lucky enough to have any cash as our finance manager always reminds me. And having to prepay for gas now a-days makes it tough, before I could go in and pull out $30 out of the ATM machine, fill up and keep the change as my allowance (remember I still have my little Honda Civic, so unless I get it down to E, I can still fill up for under $30).

    To stop this long story, my question, observation, etc. is....Isn't this killing small business more then anything? Who is really profiting from this? And who do we blame or shouldn't we fix this? Wouldn't a regulation on the amount that gets charged help small business? Now that I think about it, wasn't this something the president tried to do earlier? And then the banks were raising new fees and stuff on regular customers until people started moving their business to banks that didn't charge?

    I know each side is going to have their side of the story, but when you present it could you explain it instead of spewing the Bear Soap that politicians on both sides are?

    Thanks, Mel


    I use my Visa credit -card / debit-card for everything and make a little interest .5% on the side. Never had a problem charging $1.00 to $10,000 and never had a business tell me of a problem because of a fee. I have my card linked to a checking account and so I never get a bill and pay no fees and no min balance, if I was to my balance, I would pay a small interest fee but never have had too.. I am told that stores have to pay from 1% fee to 3% fee on every transaction so I know that is added into price and even if I pay cash I pay that fee. I have heard that some business do not take American Express card anymore because fees are high and they also charge us to use the card. I make about 50 bucks a year on my debit account in interest and the card is free. My wife has a card and she makes even more but keeps a bigger balance because on her debit card account she is now getting 2.5% on that checking / debit account. A better rate than a CD I have.
    I have used this Visa card worldwide and never had a problem except in Vegas last year at a cash machine they charged me 15$ transaction charge. In Asia I have never had more than a 1$ charge on a cash machine and 1% in some stores in Japan, most of the time it's free.
    Keith
    Zama Japan



  11. James Schmid
    James Schmid avatar
    1 posts
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