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Republicans want to raises taxes?

27 posts
  1. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/22/2011 1:08 PM
    Reported by AP: The republicans do not want to extend the payroll tax break employees are getting currently. According to the story this means they want to raise taxes by their definition.

    This kind of goes against Dave Mc's post of letting 100,000 people keep that $100 that will do more good for a community and the economy in his earlier post today under debt ceiling.

    I am curious on what everyone thinks of this and how can you defend to republicans when they want to take a tax break from the employees?

    I think it is ridiculous unless it is their ploy to get that tax break for employers as well. Which I would be ok with or at least let's debate it. But we can't raise taxes on the job creators? WTF (sorry I must be taking Olbermann Pills or something?)

    I am all ears on how this is suppose to help in this economic climate?

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  2. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/22/2011 2:08 PM
    There is only one explanation; if Obama thinks it is good the Republicans will attempt to stop it.



  3. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
  4. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    8/22/2011 3:08 PM
    I think we all would agree that drastic measures are required to balance the budget and reduce the debt. Could it be the republicans are looking for increased revenue by way of ending these specific tax deductions while decreasing spending? Both of which won't solve the problem but they are steps in the right direction. Seems to me like the republicans want a compromise. Is this acceptable or are the democrats going to complain about a compromise and yet scream if the republicans hold strong to not ending these tax breaks? Either way it would appear the republicans can't win...



  5. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/22/2011 3:08 PM
    They still want to make the Bush Tax Cuts permanent. The payroll tax break affects wage earners only, the people most likely to spend it.



  6. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/22/2011 3:08 PM
    See Clay that's what I didn't understand either, they want the Bush/Obama tax cuts extend for the wealthy (oh I mean job creators) and don't want to extend this payroll tax.

    I understand we have a debt problem and I am willing to give up that payroll tax break if need be, but why extend the other tax cuts and not the one that is benefiting me?

    So Clay's explanation doesn't hold water in my opinion, someone else willing to try it? I hate to think Scott is correct on this, I know the president wants to extend it, so is that why the republicans are against it?

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  7. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/22/2011 3:08 PM
    [youtube">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZZaP0tqUnw[/youtube">



  8. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/22/2011 3:08 PM
    "I think some of our members may have thought the default issue was a hostage you might take a chance at shooting," Sen. Mitch McConnell said. "Most of us didn't think that. What we did learn is this — it's a hostage that's worth ransoming. And it focuses the Congress on something that must be done."

    Hostage? Ransom? They fully intend to do it again!



  9. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    8/22/2011 4:08 PM
    BallMark said:

    So Clay's explanation doesn't hold water in my opinion, someone else willing to try it? I hate to think Scott is correct on this, I know the president wants to extend it, so is that why the republicans are against it?


    I was making an observation and a question more than an opinion. Although it does seem the republicans are trying for a compromise.

    Is it that my observation/question is not valid or is it that my observation/question doesn't hold water because it doesn't fit your opinion?



  10. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/22/2011 4:08 PM
    Holding the line on one tax but not another certainly is a PR problem -- and maybe an indicator that some in the GOP don't really believe or understand their platform. In either case, I can see the argument for the restoration of the previous payroll tax rates, while keeping the Bush/Obama tax cuts, but it all revolves around your purpose for the tax cut.

    If you want to spur job creation, a reduction of the employee responsibility of FICA type taxes will do little for that, since the money saved is relatively small (averaging $500/yr or about $9/wk for a weekly paycheck) and won't stimulate much additional consumer spending. But, the tax cut was intended to be temporary to begin with, so we knew that it wouldn't have much impact (temporary tax situations have NEVER impacted consumer or business behavior). But, if you want to buy votes with promises of tax cuts, this might buy a few.

    I think some republicans are thinking that this tax holiday contributes little to job creation and takes funding away from SSA and medicare. The Bush/Obama tax cuts reduced the tax burden for the lowest 60% of wage earners, dropped EVERYONE's tax rate (wage earners and employers alike), left more money in the hands of the consumer, and did not decrease contributions to SSA and medicare. I can see how reversing this could be harmful to the economy.

    But, which side you land on all has to do with what behavior you're trying to encourage and what you're trying to discourage.



  11. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/22/2011 5:08 PM
    An employee making $25,000 per year would save $500. This is a big deal to someone making $12 per hour. I don't make over $106,800 (the limit that payroll taxes apply to), so I would pay 2% more on my entire income. This is a significant figure in my world. The way I read it the employer still pays 6.2%, while the employee is given a break to 4.2%. Letting this tax break go gives the Republicans two wins; they get to stick it to Obama while simultaneously sticking it to the middle class.



  12. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/22/2011 5:08 PM
    Clay, I would say it is my opinion that your question isn't valid, that is just my opinion, the way I see it, I could be wrong, but since it's my opinion...so maybe your right about it not fitting my opinion. I say that because if they were so worried about the debt and raising revenue they would have looked at some of the revenue from other sources as well, especially during the debt ceiling fight. But they didn't even discuss raising any revenue. They also would have been able to raise more revenue had they looked at other sources and rates of taxes, then what this percentage will provide. Now I don't mind if it ends, but I would still like to see other areas of revenues looked at as well.

    I also don't think they are looking for a compromise, from every indication I have seen since they want to make the Bush/Obama cuts permanent for everyone.

    JK, the Bush tax cuts (before the Obama extension) was a temporary tax cut as well. This is my opinion as well, but what is the difference between 10 years and 1 year? I understand what you say about the small amount of the payroll tax might not really stimulate a lot of extra demand of products so it's not stimulating the economy like other stimulus might. But I know we were thankful for the break this year with gas prices jumping and our health insurance still going up. You do make good points about that small amount not stimulating the economy, but it seems the Bush/Obama tax cuts hasn't really stimulated the economy much either, not creating jobs as well. Yet the as I said above, the republicans want to make them permanent for everyone, the democrats permanent for those under $250,000. My opinion, don't make any of them permanent.

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  13. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    8/22/2011 7:08 PM
    Social security is going broke, but we still reduced the payroll FICA tax by 2%. I guess if it goes broke sooner we will fix it sooner, and since we reduced the money going into social security we do not hurt any of our precious programs. They did not give you a tax break they gave you a break from investing in Social Security. This was a stupid idea, and it is going to hurt anyone who currently is or will be depending on social security. Extending it is foolishness. Maybe this year they can reduce our Medicare payments and kill that program sooner too.



  14. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/22/2011 7:08 PM
    Social Security has taken in much more than it has paid out. The only reason there is a shortfall right now is because of the money congress has "borrowed" from it. I don't understand the willingness in this forum to make every excuse to stick it to the little guys, when we are all little guys. Or maybe I should have paid more attention and realized that every superintendent who works in Southern Louisiana, California or for an indian tribe makes much in excess of $250,000 per year!



  15. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/22/2011 7:08 PM
    Hoolehan said: Social security is going broke, but we still reduced the payroll FICA tax by 2%. I guess if it goes broke sooner we will fix it sooner, and since we reduced the money going into social security we do not hurt any of our precious programs. They did not give you a tax break they gave you a break from investing in Social Security. This was a stupid idea, and it is going to hurt anyone who currently is or will be depending on social security. Extending it is foolishness. Maybe this year they can reduce our Medicare payments and kill that program sooner too.


    I don't disagree with you Sean, but my question is this, if the country is broke, why did we extend the Bush/Obama tax cuts? This is the same logic and argument you use on the payroll tax. That is my problem with the whole deal. It just doesn't make sense to me when we aren't consistent across the board on tax, revenue, spending issues.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  16. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    8/23/2011 9:08 AM
    Let me remind you guys again. It is not there money! It is our money. Gee, they are sure kind allowing us to have a little more of our money. Who cares if the rich get tax breaks. They earn it, they pay most of the taxes anyway. Other than envy and class warfare, why do you guys continue to feel the wealthy should be punished for being successful? 50% of the country currently pay little to no taxes. How about if they pay their fair share. Shoot, we even give people money back they didn't even earn that comes from the rest of us. How smart is that? Rather than all this concern about who pays how much, how about if we make our elected officials at all levels become efficient and manage what money we give them just like we would at our golf courses. Eliminate stupidity and government waste and you will find the argument over taxes goes away. They already have enough money. They simply spend too much and on way too many unnecessary things.



  17. Steve Nelson
    Steve Nelson avatar
    0 posts
    8/23/2011 9:08 AM
    jkauffm1 said: Holding the line on one tax but not another certainly is a PR problem -- and maybe an indicator that some in the GOP don't really believe or understand their platform.


    This is the definitive line in the whole argument. For a bunch of politicians that recently argued so vehemently that any revenue increase is a tax increase and therefore against their principles, this smacks of hypocrisy. So much for "principles." I think we can all agree that both parties need to turn down the volume and start to govern effectively.

    This comment from a lifetime republican, wondering who all these folks posing as repubicans and running for president are.



  18. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    8/23/2011 9:08 AM
    Since the topic changed somewhat from tax breaks to SS I may as well jump in with my 2 cents concerning social security. It will affect me before most of you sans............Captain K (not sure if space aleins are eligible, we know illegals are) and maybe Sandy. For demostration purposes I will use some round figures. Assuming you and your employer contributed to the social security pot (roughly 15% combined) and also assuming you only averaged $30k per year over your working lifetime........that would come to roughly $200,000. If you calculate the future value of $4500 per year (joint contribution) at a simple interest rate of 5% after 45 yrs or so of working you would have accumulated over $800,000. If you removed $26k a year as a payout it would last you 30 more years. If you bought an annuity with those funds the payout could even be be greater. In a post I made back when the
    Bernie Maddoff scandal hit.........the only thing worse is the ponzi scheme purportrated by Congress on the American public with social security. It may indeed have taken in more than it has paid out (in the past) but that see saw is getting ready to flip the other way. Less workers (roughly 50% pay NO TAXES)..........more jobs going overseas, less income into SS.......in time the balance will shift. And the amount of SS disablity claims has doubled in the past half decade....that pot has a bottom also.



  19. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/23/2011 10:08 AM
    As I said, Gus, the differing tax stance could be a PR problem and give the appearance of hypocrisy, but I would say the definitive line in the whole argument is this:

    "which side you land on all has to do with what behavior you're trying to encourage and what you're trying to discourage."

    The payroll tax holiday is largely symbolic. The median individual income is somewhere close to $28,000/yr, meaning that the 2% reduction in payroll tax comes out to about $560/yr. That sounds like a lot (and I'm not dismissing it), but if we consider that wages of that nature are often paid weekly, it comes out to about $10 per week. Again, not to say that this amount of money is meaningless, but $10/wk is easily spent on little things and stimulates aggregate demand very little (remember that liberals are counting on influencing AD to stimulate job growth). That amount is also difficult for folks to save (since it is so easily spent), so it does little for personal savings.

    So, what is the point of reducing the payroll tax (what are we tryign to encourage or discourage)? Are we trying to encourage AD? If so, we're doing a poor job of it with such a small amount and an impermanent vehicle.

    Are we trying to just be nice guys and give the working man a break? Sounds good to me, but let's state that from the beginning and not kid ourselves about the loss of funding to SSA and medicare. If we overlook this, we're just trying to buy votes, hoping no one will notice that we're putting more strain on our social programs.

    Although it seems hypocritical on the surface, I think advocating for previous payroll tax rates AND Bush/Obama tax cuts can be congruent (not hypocritical), as long as we're doing it to drive job growth and cover our obligations, AND tell everyone that. Maybe some folks don't get it. If they don't get it, but just go along with it, they will make everyone look bad, regardless of the good intention.



  20. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/23/2011 1:08 PM
    sandy1 said: Let me remind you guys again. It is not their money! It is our money. (1)Who are "they"? (2)A country that had no taxes would also offer no services Gee, they are sure kind allowing us to have a little more of our money. Who cares if the rich get tax breaks. They earn it, they pay most of the taxes anyway. Other than envy and class warfare, why do you guys continue to feel the wealthy should be punished for being successful? Our problems would be solved if the rich paid the same percentage I do. 50% of the country currently pay little to no taxes. That is not really true. Just like the rich they have to do things to get tax breaks like buy a house and pay their mortgage. How about if they pay their fair share. Okay there's $200 billion dollars and lower income people stop buying houses. That IS a start I suppose. Shoot, we even give people money back they didn't even earn that comes from the rest of us. How smart is that? Rather than all this concern about who pays how much, how about if we make our elected officials at all levels become efficient and manage what money we give them just like we would at our golf courses. Eliminate stupidity and government waste and you will find the argument over taxes goes away. They already have enough money. They simply spend too much and on way too many unnecessary things. A lot of tea party people got elected in the last election. "They" now ARE the government. I think the American people will see the obvious hypocrisy and ill will of these folks and they will not be re-elected. I could be wrong, but that is why we have elections.



  21. Ronald Kirkman
    Ronald Kirkman avatar
    42 posts
    8/23/2011 8:08 PM
    Mr. David Mac.

    Yes, Space Aliens can collect Social Security if you paid into it. I have been collecting for quite a few years. Before taxes, I collect $ 2,118 monthly and my wife collects one - half of mine which is $1065 per month. My total is $ 25,416 per year before taxes and my wife is $ 12,780 per year before taxes. That equals a gross of $38,196 per year or $ 734.54 per week. My only problem is that I support my early American Friends at the casino.

    My wife still works so she does not draw on her pension from the government (school system) as a media secretary. Where else can you make $ 480 for 21 hours of work per week. Remember, I said 21 hrs. not 24 hrs. She can collect half my Social Security until she stops working and then she will collect her pension which will be about double the Social Security she gets now. Her 403B (like a 401K) she does not have to draw on until she retires. We do draw from our other retirement plans on a quarterly basis. That is the law. When I fully retire at the end of October from the clubhouse my goal is to collect unemployment somewhere around $ 550 to $ 600 per week for 6 months and then work on the golf course for 6 months. chances are that I will still be doing the clubs bookkeeping.

    I always thought I was an Independent, looks like I'm a Democrat now.

    Capt. Kirk
    Rtired Alien



  22. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    8/24/2011 8:08 AM
    Captain K..............as long as you understand that, it's fine. I will not hold it against you. When Pet and I go meet the president we will email pictures and tweet about it (if Pete knows how to do all that). Man it's going to be fun.



  23. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    8/24/2011 9:08 AM
    McCallum said: When Pet and I go meet the president we will email pictures and tweet about it (if Pete knows how to do all that). Man it's going to be fun.


    It's "Pet" now? I don't even want to know. Not that there's anything wrong with that.



  24. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/24/2011 10:08 AM
    conard said:
    McCallum said: When Pet and I go meet the president we will email pictures and tweet about it (if Pete knows how to do all that). Man it's going to be fun.


    It's "Pet" now? I don't even want to know. Not that there's anything wrong with that.


    I think we had a bout of this in the old forum as well?

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  25. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    8/24/2011 1:08 PM
    A mere fraudian slip...........a faux pas..........just all jealous that two conservatives are going to break bread and drink some brewskies for a mere pitance of $5.00..................he really knows who has the big bucks. He saves those $35k a plate dinners for the liberals.......those guys he is partying down with in Martha's Vineyard



  26. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/24/2011 2:08 PM
    note to self, make sure to add e to end of Pete's name

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  27. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    8/24/2011 7:08 PM
    I buy the guy a couple beers and he thinks he can call me Pet.



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