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Salary Requirement

46 posts
  1. Tim Gravert
    Tim Gravert avatar
    0 posts
    12/29/2016 5:12 PM
    I have talked with a lot of people who are not happy with all the jobs that are being posted with no salary range. I see all these jobs that say commensurate with experience and then are far from that once pay is actually found out. Not saying that pay is everything or even the determining factor in jobs, but it is important enough to make a requirement to help this associations members to determine if the job is right for them. Am I the only one that feels this way, and what is the reasoning behind the Gcsaa not making this a requirement.



  2. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    12/30/2016 4:12 AM
    I believe a salary/wage/compensation should be required for all job postings. Our members should have a clear understanding of the position and golf course/owner for whom they are considering. Time is valuable and weeks can be wasted to discover the compensation level of a position. Additionally, it can be common for employers to ask the applicant about his/her salary history and now our association no longer requires the employer to post compensation. Who is it that our leadership is catering?

    I recently listed a few items for sale on Craigslist. A price was required to publish the post.



  3. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    12/30/2016 6:12 AM
    "Who is it that our leadership is catering to?"

    Good question. I suspect it's not you. If you've ever had occasion to hire a PGA member, you would be amazed at the difference in how these things are handled. Of course, the excuse is always that the PGA has more money than we do, but I think their association is focused on its members and their jobs, our association seems to be focused on the people who own golf courses.


    Steve



  4. Stephen Ravenkamp
    Stephen Ravenkamp avatar
    1 posts
    12/30/2016 7:12 AM
    I disagree, Steve. My experience is that GCSAA is very member-centric. I have been involved in several committees and have had a lot of contact with the association and I have found they extremely dedicated to trying to help our members. But they are not mind readers. Communication is a two-way street. But if you have a problem they will go the extra mile to try to help.

    I do agree that they should require posters to list salaries, but maybe this could be the first time GCSAA has ever had anyone express that opinion. I would also say, though, that will probably not make any difference to employers. There are enough people out there who are willing to take a job regardless of the salary and that is what holds salaries down. It's strictly a matter of supply and demand.



  5. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    12/30/2016 3:12 PM
    If they were member centric, as you put it, why do they push us to spend our time and money lobbying everyone and their brother about subjects that should be lobbied by golf course owners? Have you ever heard of of a PGA pro joining a committee to lobby an elected official about a water or pesticide issue?
    Why are employees spending their own time and money to support issues that affect the owners of golf courses?
    Why isn't the GCSAA spending our money supporting Superintendent's that lose their job because they are not the flavor of the month any more?
    Why are we giving millions to support University programs to pump out students with degrees for jobs that don't exist? Is it any wonder that a guy will take a job for wayyyy less than it should pay?
    Now we have regional representatives....have you ever seen him? Does he ever call you or come visit? You can bet he's visiting his old buddies. What does he do, exactly besides burn your dues money?
    The job listings is just a tiny part of the whole issue. The GCSAA spends all of its money on research and lobbying that is only tangentially supportive of its members. Why is there not a rainy day fund for supers with 20 years experience who get fired because they're too old? Do you really think this doesn't happen?
    I've invested a shitload of my own time and money to become Certified and I have yet to make a nickel because of it.
    When you call the PGA for resumes, they will filter the submissions based on the criteria that you specify and send you the number of resumes that you want based on how much you want to deal with. The GCSAA's shotgun approach with no salary information is possibly the most rudimentary system out there. We can't do any better than that? We post a job and an employer gets 200 resumes? That makes a lot of sense.
    We usually give our highest awards every year to a goddam golf pro, any wonder we're second fiddles?

    Regards,

    Steve



  6. Mowrey Mark S
    Mowrey Mark S avatar
    12/30/2016 5:12 PM
    Your right on the money Steve. I need to see the salary range, time to precious to waste on taking another job at less salary. I recently took another job outside the golf industry after 39 yrs. but an still in the Green industry. My Regional rep. and the National kept sending me E-mails that my dues were due and after explaining that I was no longer in golf and with regrets I was not renewing my membership. I also stated that I felt the National was catering more to the big boys with money to burn at their courses. The little guys that don't even have a storage building for chemicals are long forgotten. That is a shame, they need the help the most and it seems that all we hear about are what the bigger clubs are dong to get ready for a National championship.
    My Rep. did work at reclassifying me as AA Retired with a lifetime membership. Promised a new membership card, haven't seen it yet though. Anyway, I miss the golf industry and daily look at the job postings. Won't send out a resume without knowing how much pay is involved. It is a shame the direction our organization is headed.
    Mark.



  7. Stephen Ravenkamp
    Stephen Ravenkamp avatar
    1 posts
    12/31/2016 7:12 AM
    Steve,
    While I respect your opinion I can't agree with you. The money spent on lobbying and research does benefit the superintendents by giving us a voice at the table when Congress contemplates changes that affect how we do our jobs. And in the years I have been in the industry I have seen a change in the way superintendents are perceived, and that is a direct result of things GCSAA has done to promote us. Obviously, not everyone's view has changed; and that is reflected in some of the job postings. I see the postings where it is obvious all the owner is trying to do is get someone on the cheap. But they continue to proliferate because there is always someone willing to take the job at an "un-professional" salary. Perhaps GCSAA could could screen postings and require they be listed at an "industry standard" salary? I don't know.
    What I do know, though, is you get out of the association what you put in. I can state, without reservation, the staff listens. But the vast majority of our members, for various reasons, are not actively involved and it has been my experience the most dis-satified members are the ones who are the least involved. We have thousands of members but only a relatively few who are actively involved. The reality is that the ones who are involved set the direction the association is going.



  8. Keith Lamb
    Keith Lamb avatar
    3 posts
    12/31/2016 4:12 PM
    Stephen Ravenkamp, CGCS said: Steve,
    While I respect your opinion I can't agree with you. The money spent on lobbying and research does benefit the superintendents by giving us a voice at the table when Congress contemplates changes that affect how we do our jobs. And in the years I have been in the industry I have seen a change in the way superintendents are perceived, and that is a direct result of things GCSAA has done to promote us. Obviously, not everyone's view has changed; and that is reflected in some of the job postings. I see the postings where it is obvious all the owner is trying to do is get someone on the cheap. But they continue to proliferate because there is always someone willing to take the job at an "un-professional" salary. Perhaps GCSAA could could screen postings and require they be listed at an "industry standard" salary? I don't know.
    What I do know, though, is you get out of the association what you put in. I can state, without reservation, the staff listens. But the vast majority of our members, for various reasons, are not actively involved and it has been my experience the most dis-satified members are the ones who are the least involved. We have thousands of members but only a relatively few who are actively involved. The reality is that the ones who are involved set the direction the association is going.



    It's hard to actively involved when you have to spend 60-80 hours a week to try and keep your job. The association highlights the premier supt. because they are the ones with the money, staffing and resources to be involved. I love to see how many Superintendents from sub 400K budget courses are on our current BOD or how many there has been in the last 15 years. I would be stunned if the answer was anything but zero. It is frustrating to watch how much of our resources (GCSAA) are used to benefit GC owners. We've got to be the only industry where the employees spend so much time and money protecting their employers. I agree that we should have a seat at the table through lobbying and some research support.

    Many of us just watch the same shitty superintendents jumping around from job to job.....keep getting hired because they take every low ball offer from the owners that we work so hard to protect.

    As far as the Regional Rep goes....You know I love ya Ralph.....He seems to be in more of a support role for the local associations. I know if I had any questions or issues I could call Ralphie up, but I would be quite surprised to see him show up at my course......unless Clay orders him to rough me up.....which I think I could take him anyways.

    Maybe we should hire someone from the PGA to run our association?



  9. Christopher Thuer
    Christopher Thuer avatar
    101 posts
    12/31/2016 5:12 PM
    It should be mandatory to show salary, benefits, and budget. Before an opening is listed the course owner or club rep should at least see the wage and benefits survey for their region.

    Maybe another function for the local GCSAA field staff to meet with or at least call the owner or club rep. before the listing goes public. I worked through a couple of pro changes and the local PGA chapter visited the club and did just that before they listed the opening. They discussed compensation, experience requirements, etc.

    Chris Thuer, CGCS, Bear Slide Golf Club, Cicero, IN

  10. Jeffrey Sexton
    Jeffrey Sexton avatar
    0 posts
    12/31/2016 7:12 PM
    I agree with Chris. The field staff needs to get involved before jobs are posted by non GCSAA members.



  11. David Smith
    David Smith avatar
    0 posts
    1/2/2017 10:01 AM
    All the details of the club and job opening should be included. Waste of everyone's time if not.



  12. Jack Tripp
    Jack Tripp avatar
    3 posts
    1/2/2017 10:01 AM
    Would you rather they just post their job opening elsewhere? Turfnet or the many other job boards.



  13. Trevor Monreal
    Trevor Monreal avatar
    5 posts
    1/2/2017 12:01 PM
    Jack Tripp, CGCS said: Would you rather they just post their job opening elsewhere? Turfnet or the many other job boards.

    Sure, why not
    However, it seems to me members of this association are expecting more out of the job postings posted here on our own site.
    And...getting some help with this from our own association (good luck with that!).
    I've been a member for 20+ years now
    I know, as long as my budget is less than 7 figures, not to expect more from my membership than a magazine
    Sure, sure...
    I understand that because of all the efforts made by the association some people do look at me differently while I'm wearing Hip Waders pulling flag sticks and/or tee markers tossed into the irrigation pond the night before.
    For that...I'm thankful



  14. Mowrey Mark S
    Mowrey Mark S avatar
    1/2/2017 2:01 PM
    After reading these posts, my own input included, I would like to know how the Association stands. They have been silent while we discuss this. Someone there has to know about this subject on the forum. Do we have to directly and specifically request attention to this matter. We have raised legitimate points and I would like an answer. After reading about the "Pro's" assn., I feel let down by ours. Research is important, but so are we.
    Mark.



  15. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/2/2017 6:01 PM
    Keith Lamb said:


    ...unless Clay orders him to rough me up.....which I think I could take him anyways.



    Ralph's a formidable foe. He was the 4th grade flash card champ and he juked me out one time in football - that still haunts me.



  16. Jack Tripp
    Jack Tripp avatar
    3 posts
    1/2/2017 7:01 PM
    Go look at the equipment manager/mechanic postings of the GCSAA website. GCSAA Superintendent's post salary ranges for most Assistant Superintendent openings, but not for mechanics. If you have a job description for your mechanic's position why not post the wage range? If candidates that apply that don't fill the skill set you are looking for you can always go to the applicant and say we can't pay you X until you meet the skill level we require. Don't get it. Superintendent's want the salary range posted for Superintendent positions, but are not willing to do the same for positions they are hiring for.



  17. Dane Gamble
    Dane Gamble avatar
    2 posts
    1/2/2017 10:01 PM
    Happy New Year to All! This forum posting has certainly grown beyond the question of why job postings do not include salary ranges. I would be in favor of a stated salary range being included in postings through GCSAA. I also recognize in many professional recruitment processes that salary is not included in initial job postings. Just a few thoughts on some other points raised. With regard to the PGA CareerLinks Center, it should be noted that the PGA employs 14 Career Consultants based across the country, a significant operational expense for their association. As far as why we, as employees, should spend our time and, evidently to varying degrees, our money, to support issues that affect golf course owners, it may best be answered in posing another question. If golf course owners are not successful as a result of everyone involved in their business, how successful can we be as golf course superintendents? Shouldn't everyone involved be focused on success? I've been a member of GCSAA for 37 years and a golf course owner for 28 years; I guess somewhere along the line I missed the notion that GCSAA was looking out for me as an owner and that superintendents who I have worked with are "protecting" me (from what?) as has been suggested in prior posts. I have taken advantage of educational offerings from GCSAA and made extensive use of online resources available to all members as well as enjoying Golf Course Management monthly. Our assistants and some key co-workers have similarly used resources offered by GCSAA. Somehow we manage to do this across four different facilities, all as "sub $400K" budget operations, much less seven figures. As far as 60-80 hour work weeks inhibiting involvement in professional association activities, I would suggest that 60-80 hour weeks are inhibiting a lot more than that!



  18. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    1/3/2017 10:01 AM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: If they were member centric, as you put it, why do they push us to spend our time and money lobbying everyone and their brother about subjects that should be lobbied by golf course owners? Have you ever heard of of a PGA pro joining a committee to lobby an elected official about a water or pesticide issue?
    Why are employees spending their own time and money to support issues that affect the owners of golf courses?
    Why isn't the GCSAA spending our money supporting Superintendent's that lose their job because they are not the flavor of the month any more?
    Why are we giving millions to support University programs to pump out students with degrees for jobs that don't exist? Is it any wonder that a guy will take a job for wayyyy less than it should pay?
    Now we have regional representatives....have you ever seen him? Does he ever call you or come visit? You can bet he's visiting his old buddies. What does he do, exactly besides burn your dues money?
    The job listings is just a tiny part of the whole issue. The GCSAA spends all of its money on research and lobbying that is only tangentially supportive of its members. Why is there not a rainy day fund for supers with 20 years experience who get fired because they're too old? Do you really think this doesn't happen?
    I've invested a shitload of my own time and money to become Certified and I have yet to make a nickel because of it.
    When you call the PGA for resumes, they will filter the submissions based on the criteria that you specify and send you the number of resumes that you want based on how much you want to deal with. The GCSAA's shotgun approach with no salary information is possibly the most rudimentary system out there. We can't do any better than that? We post a job and an employer gets 200 resumes? That makes a lot of sense.
    We usually give our highest awards every year to a goddam golf pro, any wonder we're second fiddles?

    Regards,

    Steve


    Steve-

    Over the years, you and I have not always agreed, but you're spot on in your comments. Keep on keeping on. I'm going to cheer from the sidelines.



  19. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    1/3/2017 12:01 PM
    This subject came up on Twitter a couple of weeks ago and i am sure GCSAA was aware of it. I don't know if anyone monitors the forums so if you have a specific question its best to call headquarters or better yet call your GCSAA Field Staff. I know the guys i have talked to love to hear from members. I bet they are getting to the bottom of how this has occurred and will respond. The holidays are over now so i suppose you will hear back shortly.

    Concerning the Old Tom Award. I have heard complaints for years about not giving it to a Superintendent (actually 4 Superintendents have received it). Then when we do its not the right kind of Superintendent. Mr. Latshaw is a excellent choice for this award, really quite a pioneer who elevated the whole field with a pretty impressive legacy.

    Concerning the make-up of the GCSAA BOD they might not be from low end courses but trust me the vast majority of Board Members spent time along the way at them. People serve on the Board to make GCSAA better, its rewarding i encourage you all to get involved.

    Lastly, if you are working 60-80 hours a week and don't like it [u">you[/u"> need to fix that, GCSAA cant fix that. I know i have had my share of long weeks but they are not the norm and should not be. Some people in our field enjoy working those kind of hours, let them, but that is not good management.



  20. David Brandenburg
    David Brandenburg avatar
    3 posts
    1/3/2017 2:01 PM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: If they were member centric, as you put it, why do they push us to spend our time and money lobbying everyone and their brother about subjects that should be lobbied by golf course owners? Have you ever heard of of a PGA pro joining a committee to lobby an elected official about a water or pesticide issue?
    Why are employees spending their own time and money to support issues that affect the owners of golf courses?
    Why isn't the GCSAA spending our money supporting Superintendent's that lose their job because they are not the flavor of the month any more?
    Why are we giving millions to support University programs to pump out students with degrees for jobs that don't exist? Is it any wonder that a guy will take a job for wayyyy less than it should pay?
    Now we have regional representatives....have you ever seen him? Does he ever call you or come visit? You can bet he's visiting his old buddies. What does he do, exactly besides burn your dues money?
    The job listings is just a tiny part of the whole issue. The GCSAA spends all of its money on research and lobbying that is only tangentially supportive of its members. Why is there not a rainy day fund for supers with 20 years experience who get fired because they're too old? Do you really think this doesn't happen?
    I've invested a shitload of my own time and money to become Certified and I have yet to make a nickel because of it.
    When you call the PGA for resumes, they will filter the submissions based on the criteria that you specify and send you the number of resumes that you want based on how much you want to deal with. The GCSAA's shotgun approach with no salary information is possibly the most rudimentary system out there. We can't do any better than that? We post a job and an employer gets 200 resumes? That makes a lot of sense.
    We usually give our highest awards every year to a goddam golf pro, any wonder we're second fiddles?

    Regards,

    Steve


    All, I would prefer all job notices we post have a salary listed. Although we may lose some notices to other job listings I think the GCSAA notices should be above board. I do not think we should tell clubs what to pay or only advertise positions above a certain wage because there is a GCSAA member somewhere who wants that job no matter what the pay.

    Steve, I used to share your belief that the owners association should be or could be the main supporter of lobbying in Washington and states. However I have come to understand they will not. The NGCOA does what it can however many individual owners feel the dues they pay on behalf of their superintendent should cover their lobby costs and the superintendents associations should be the ones supporting and paying for environmental issues.

    Also superintendents are considered the experts on the issues of water, nutrients, plant protectants and golf course labor. Since we as individual superintendents do not have time to go to Washington and lobby GCSAA and local Chapters do that on our behalf. Even if you work 70 hours a week you can take the time to call or write your local or national political leaders and use your expertise on the issues to give them your opinion.



  21. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/3/2017 3:01 PM
    Interesting topic and responses. I remember some of the Twitter banter on this and there is also a discussion in one of the Facebook groups about SM going back to B. In all of these discussions, while some of it might be of different topics, all of them lead back to the value of membership, being involved and what GCSAA can do better. While I hope we continue this discussion, I have noticed a couple of trends that hopefully can be made more clear. We know there are some differences in career services offered by both GCSAA and the PGA. Some of those differences have been explained. I do know at one time we offered more with GCSAA, but now most of that seems to be contracted out, (help with career guidance, cover letters, resumes, etc.) . I haven't fully digested the comments yet to field a response to the value and time needed to be an active member. Quite honestly it has been addressed by those smarter and more eloquent then I.

    The one thing that has been mentioned is how about Field Staff getting more involved with some of these issues of career/job postings etc. I don't think that is really their mission, maybe membership wants them to be, but and maybe someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but their mission as I understand it is, to be the conduit between chapters and the national. They work with chapters on their governance, help chapters connect with GCSAA's programs for chapters, keep a watchful eye out for government regulations that will affect chapters in their region. And I believe they are to reach out to golf courses who don't have superintendents who are members. Along with helping current members connect with the national, when maybe the member's chapter doesn't have the answer to something. If that is something more or different that members want field staff to do, sounds like we need more field staff or let the board know we are looking for something different?

    If I'm wrong about what I think Field Staff's mission is, hopefully someone will correct me. I did try to search for a written mission statement for them along with maybe a job description but didn't find one. Maybe that could be shared?

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  22. Christopher Thuer
    Christopher Thuer avatar
    101 posts
    1/3/2017 5:01 PM
    David, I don't think the GCSAA should be telling what clubs should pay. But there should be a way to show the clubs what the average and the range of compensation for their area is and give some guidance as to what they could offer in relation to their budget, size, etc. Also give some insight as to what level of applicants to expect or be asking for. There are a lot of openings saying they want a class A or certified and want a "working" superintendent and if a salary is listed it is $35K.

    Chris Thuer, CGCS, Bear Slide Golf Club, Cicero, IN

  23. Dane Gamble
    Dane Gamble avatar
    2 posts
    1/3/2017 7:01 PM
    Just a thought...what if GCSAA provided facilities wishing to list a position with a copy of the most recent Compensation and Benefits Report prior to accepting and posting any listing. Facilities would have information that could, perhaps, give them additional insight as they seek the best candidate for their situation. At the same time, GCSAA could require that the listing provide a salary range.



  24. Scott Tullis
    Scott Tullis avatar
    0 posts
    1/3/2017 8:01 PM
    Posting a salary requirement is one thing, but before a job is posted someone should make sure the position is open. Jobs are being posted for positions that aren't open far more often than anyone knows. When management companies buy or take over operations, the superintendent is let go way too often, and in some cases the job is posted beforehand.



  25. Corey Eastwood
    Corey Eastwood avatar
    82 posts
    1/4/2017 11:01 AM
    I may be wrong but think the salary was always in the job advertisement until a couple of years ago. I think it should be a requirement.

    Corey Eastwood CGCS, Stockton Golf & CC, Retired

  26. Shelia Finney
    Shelia Finney avatar
    11 posts
    1/4/2017 5:01 PM
    As highlighted in this thread, GCSAA currently doesn't require a salary amount or range. This change took place in 2015. This approach was put in place to increase the number of job opportunities posted overall, as well as appeal to high-end courses who would have opted to list jobs on competitor sites that did not require salaries to be disclosed. I love the conversation that this has spurred amongst the membership, we need your input and thoughts. We actually already had this on our radar to evaluate this business rule to determine what changes we may want to implement in 2017. So excellent timing guys!

    Please be sure to fill out the Compensation and Benefits Survey as we may use it in plans moving forward with the job board. The data you provide us will help us make recommendations to employers.

    Shelia Finney
    GCSAA Sr Director, Member Services



  27. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    1/5/2017 11:01 AM
    Shelia Finney said: As highlighted in this thread, GCSAA currently doesn't require a salary amount or range. This change took place in 2015. This approach was put in place to increase the number of job opportunities posted overall, as well as appeal to high-end courses who would have opted to list jobs on competitor sites that did not require salaries to be disclosed. I love the conversation that this has spurred amongst the membership, we need your input and thoughts. We actually already had this on our radar to evaluate this business rule to determine what changes we may want to implement in 2017. So excellent timing guys!

    Please be sure to fill out the Compensation and Benefits Survey as we may use it in plans moving forward with the job board. The data you provide us will help us make recommendations to employers.

    Shelia Finney
    GCSAA Sr Director, Member Services



    Shelia,

    Recently a GCSAA member applied for a listed position that by all appearances should have been a top paying club in their area. During the interview he was asked what his present compensation was and to his dismay found that the club was not willing to pay what he already made. The member inquired prior to the interview and was told "pay was commensurate with experience". Of course he could have been more specific when asking. These "Pay Commensurate with.." allow employers to troll for the cheapest option without a commitment to actually pay the going salary. (I know that there is nothing to make a employer pay what they advertise.)

    Certainly more job opportunities posted would be a goal, but a better goal would be better job opportunities. Certainly no other website can boast nor leverage the number of potential qualified applicants that GCSAA [u">should[/u"> be able to. The competitor sites leverage their exclusive network which is made up of members willing to pay more money to participate in a more exclusive club of Superintendents and their perceived status in the industry.

    Perhaps GCSAA should engage these perceived high end jobs when they see them appear on rival websites. The perfect individual to do this would be GCSAA Field Staff who know the local network/chapters and salary statistics and could become a valuable resource to employers seeking help.

    GCSAA has moved out of a more direct career assistance program and to a third party service with a member discount (there are literally thousands of these providers). Perhaps GCSAA should consider a more regional (based on Field Staff Region) approach to career assistance services.

    Don't be so sensitive to the "High End" membership/clubs. This represents about 10% of the members (or less with the addition of the technician classification). These members have already figured it out and many of them used GCSAA resources to get where they are. Focus on the resources members need to get them there. The reality is and always has been that the majority of high end jobs rarely make any website/employment board. It is the networks members belong to that helps them the most.



  28. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/5/2017 12:01 PM
    Slow Clap.........



  29. Jeffrey Whitmire
    Jeffrey Whitmire avatar
    0 posts
    1/5/2017 7:01 PM
    I remember an interview with Armen Suny saying that his firm would not list jobs with GCSAA when they had the salary requirement. I do not remember the reason for this.



  30. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/6/2017 4:01 AM
    Jeffrey Whitmire, CGCS said: I remember an interview with Armen Suny saying that his firm would not list jobs with GCSAA when they had the salary requirement. I do not remember the reason for this.


    Anyone refusing to post a position due to compensation requirements is hiding something and possibly ashamed of their compensation structure.



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