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Superintendant at a small 9 hole course.

37 posts
  1. John Borcher
    John Borcher avatar
    0 posts
    1/4/2012 4:01 PM
    I am looking for career advise, I am currently a 2nd assistant at a 27 hole public course in Nebraska. I have been looking at different jobs and often I find openings for supers at these small 9 hole courses in which you are for the most part the only person on staff to take care of the course.

    My question is should I take the job as the super at one of these courses. My reservations about taking the job would be how would it look when I try to get a job as a super at a 18 hole facility with a crew. My career goals are not to become a super at a high end private course, but I would like to be at a nice midwest golf course. I am wondering how you as superintendents would see that if you were hiring your replacement or how you would think a BOD would perceive it.



  2. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    1/4/2012 8:01 PM
    John,

    It depends on how happy you are at your current job, and how hard you want to work without a lot of help.

    I have hired a fair share of people throughout my career, but whenever it was a superintendent, or an assistant superintendent, I always jumped on a plane and met them at their current course. Seeing how they maintained their properties and equipment was always more important to me than reading about where they had worked.

    If you happen to find a promising job at a 9 hole facility, and believe that you can make it better, then I would say go for it. Take photos when you arrive. Then continue taking photos as it improves. The owner may give you more people or equipment if he likes the results. Or...maybe he won't. But if you're good, you can transform any goat ranch into a nice playing field just through hard work. And if I, coming to meet you, looked at the photos of before and after, and looked at what you had to work with, and.....realized a definite improvement......I'd hire you.

    I've been lucky. I've managed courses with multi-million dollar budgets, and managed courses early in my career with $400K budgets, my salary included. It's what a person can do, with what they're given to work with, that always impresses me.

    I've probably written this before on this forum, but it's still what I go by every day.

    If you have a pile of dirt and a pile of rocks and do nothing, you only have a pile of dirt and rocks. However, if you spend a a day moving the dirt around and placing the rocks in the right way, you have a Japanese garden. No additional cost, other than some sore muscles.

    It's easy to make a positive impression. You just need to want to.

    Good luck.



  3. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/4/2012 9:01 PM
    While Jeff makes some great points, and he is much wiser then me, I do caution, that while it's great that you have pictures that show what you have accomplished, sometimes it is hard to get those pictures looked at when they see where you are coming from. Just my experience during my 20 years.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  4. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    1/5/2012 9:01 AM
    I think it would be wise to work your way up to first assistant as your next step. Patience is hard sometimes but the first assistant position may teach you things you haven't been exposed to yet. You may be a very talented young man and could easily handle the nine hole facility. I personally think you would help your career more if you spent time in the next step before taking the smaller course. By doing that, you may find more opportunities available to you.



  5. Patrick Reinhardt
    Patrick Reinhardt avatar
    0 posts
    1/5/2012 9:01 AM
    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: I think it would be wise to work your way up to first assistant as your next step. Patience is hard sometimes but the first assistant position may teach you things you haven't been exposed to yet. You may be a very talented young man and could easily handle the nine hole facility. I personally think you would help your career more if you spent time in the next step before taking the smaller course. By doing that, you may find more opportunities available to you.


    Bingo. Depending on the course, a first assistant's position can provide you with even more opportunities to grow. I was a Senior Assistant for a few years, but during that time I was able to accomplish a lot professionally, and wait for the right superintendent's position.



  6. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    1/5/2012 4:01 PM
    Why are you guys piling on me? Is it because I'm new?



  7. Smith Kipp R
    Smith Kipp R avatar
    1/5/2012 7:01 PM
    Hey John,
    I'm out in G.I. I started here when I was 20 years old as an assistant. I was at the course 6 months and they fired the superintendent in the middle of July. They asked me if I wanted the job. I have never backed down from a challenge so I took it. Under paid working 80 hrs a week and not knowing what the hell I was doing, I survived. Looking back 12 yrs later, part of me wishes I wouldn't have taken the job and the other part is stronger for doing so. I worked on a 9 hole course through out high school and college, so I knew the simple things. What i'm trying to get at, is take your time working your way up. If you feel like you have the knowledge there is nothing wrong with the 9 hole courses. In my opinion, in this part of the country it will not hold you back from becoming a 18 hole super. There is just as much pressure on a 9 hole as there is an 18 hole. On the other hand becoming a 1st assistant under a good superintendent is priceless. The knowledge some of these older supers have is worth the wait. These guys didn't learn this over night. I learned the hard way on a lot of issues and still ask a million questions. Good luck with what ever you decide just for asking this question you are on your way.



  8. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/5/2012 8:01 PM
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said: Why are you guys piling on me? Is it because I'm new?


    Yes......

    I thought you made good points Jeff, I just know in my situation it didn't really work that way and some of it probably due to facilities I have worked at.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  9. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    1/6/2012 8:01 AM
    I tend to agree with all of your views. As Jeff said if motivated and you follow his suggestions you should progress in the industry. But again if content to run a 9 hole operation then that's great also. It should be what you and your family want out of your profession. But 33 years ago when coming out of school I had the opportunity to begin as an assistant at a high budget, high profile course or begin as a green superintendent at a lower end facility. I chose to make my own mistakes and learn from them. It worked out for me, but the industry has changed greatly since 1978, more competition for those good jobs, a declining golf economy etc. Your choice to make and hopefully it will work out to your benefit down the road.



  10. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    1/6/2012 9:01 AM
    I would also consider the future from a nine hole course. Each state has those courses that once you get it, it will be very difficult to be taken serious for the next step up in your career. I have been on a number of selection panels over my years in the business. I can tell you from experience that when many resumes are received, many are thrown out due to first impression or reputation of the facility. An assistant from a so-called good course will get selected 9 out of 10 times over the applicant from the 9 hole course. That may not hold true everywhere throughout the country but just be aware that some courses are like the kiss of death when it comes to being taken seriously. It certainly isn't fair but it means you need to look down the road 5 to 10 years and weigh if it would be a good step. I am certainly not knocking 9 hole or lower budget courses because many of the truly best superintendents do miracles with very little and could run rings around most of us. You are looking at a career and it is important that you really do your homework and not just jump because of a title. Think and plan long term!



  11. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/6/2012 9:01 AM
    Sandy confirmed the point I was trying to make as I responded to Jeff's post. You might have done a great job with a small budget, made lot's of improvements, have the pictures and stuff to prove it, but unless you send all of that information, and I don't know if that is something that is popular or being done at this time, your first impression and introduction to someone is through your resume, and depending on who is doing the search, a name course is going to stand out, an 18 hole course is going to stand out over a nine. Just my experience and opinion.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  12. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    1/6/2012 12:01 PM
    The flip side is that maybe you can be happy and have a long career at a lower budget 9-hole course where the customer appreciates you, whereas jumping into the high end private stream you can likely be shown the door at 45ish in order to "take it to another level."

    Too bad most of those doing the hiring don't do what Jeff has done in the past. Regrettably, I think most don't understand what we do so they look at the name and rank of the golf course and figure that those employed there must necessarily be the best candidates.



  13. Robert Crockett
    Robert Crockett avatar
    4 posts
    1/6/2012 1:01 PM
    John Borcher said: I am looking for career advise, I am currently a 2nd assistant at a 27 hole public course in Nebraska. I have been looking at different jobs and often I find openings for supers at these small 9 hole courses in which you are for the most part the only person on staff to take care of the course.

    My question is should I take the job as the super at one of these courses. My reservations about taking the job would be how would it look when I try to get a job as a super at a 18 hole facility with a crew. My career goals are not to become a super at a high end private course, but I would like to be at a nice midwest golf course. I am wondering how you as superintendents would see that if you were hiring your replacement or how you would think a BOD would perceive it.

    If you are wanting to build a career in the GC Industry, move up the ladder accordingly. If you take a 9 hole GC,"unless it's an executive", with with an appropriate budget and personnel, you would be "In my opinion" taking a step back in the wrong direction. If it's a life style choice then I would understand. Most of the 9 hole courses are very trying at times......Pretty hard. I have done it and did well. However, I would not choose that again. It's nice to have a team effort......Good Luck :P



  14. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    1/6/2012 8:01 PM
    Okay, you guys need to stop beating me up. I'm a sensitive kind of guy, and cry easily. I'm pathetic. But you all know that.

    I talked with John by phone for quite awhile. He happens to be a very intelligent young man.

    I'm sticking by my recommendation. Not referring specifically to John's situation, but as a second, one has to rise to first. Maybe the first has no intention of moving on. What then are the choices?

    I think it takes guts to jump to that first superintendent position, on either a 9 or 18 hole property.

    I took all compliments from members, or guests, on the course condition at my first $2.5 million budget course with a grain of salt. Sure, I was flattered, but when you have 55 employees, it's kind of tough to take credit for a spotless golf course. Having 6 fairway mowers, 6 rough mowers, 12 walk-behind greens mowers, 3 greens aerators, etc., etc., etc., it's somewhat disingenuous to proudly claim that your course is in perfect shape....because of you. I had so many bodies to work with, if there was a section of the cart path that wasn't edged, swept and washed, I should have been fired.

    I agree that there are many superintendents out there that simply "bleed or sweat" information on a daily basis, and I'm proud to know many of them. But, that information is only absorbed by someone with talent. Talent they had before working for that superintendent.

    What is a second asst. going to learn after 3 years? Maybe they're mentally programmed, and can follow orders to the letter, but what decisions are they asked to make on a daily basis? Decisions that could affect the entire property?

    I've sent assistants on their way up because I knew they were ready to shoulder the burden of decisions that could possibly get them fired. Isn't that the point of advancement? It's the Peter Principle. I don't need a man or woman that has reached the top of their abilities, because I taught them everything that "they" could learn. And usually, they had reached that threshold working for me. I was always there for the "big" decisions. That simply doesn't work for someone that has the drive, and smarts, to make that leap.

    I can tell you, after talking to John, that he is prepared to take that leap. Maybe he won't. He's read a lot of opinions from a lot of qualified superintendents on this forum. Only he knows what his limitations are at this point in his life. So you're all correct, if he's not ready. I guess I could be correct, if he is ready.

    We talked about that, and he understands that I was simply supporting "whatever" path he chose. I mean, there is SO much information available on this forum, that he "could" head to a goat track and still have the support of all of us, while turning it around.

    Especially the really old ones, which includes most of you, but not me. I tried to change my logon name to Dorian Gray, but they refused. So unfair.

    Bottom line is that not everyone is willing, or able, to take on the role of superintendent when young. I took that chance, and jumped from a well known facility with a huge budget, to a no-name course that had my salary taking up 20% of the entire maintenance budget. But....it was the best move I ever made. People talk, and they talk about course conditions. They don't "usually" talk about the name. I did circulate my resume, with photos, and one day I received a call from an agronomist with the Nicklaus organization. He shared my philosophy, and couldn't care less about my course name. Next thing I knew.....I was interviewing with owners at 8 sites throughout SE Asia. Would I have received that call if my title was second, or first assistant? No. My title was "superintendent".

    My life and career changed overnight. Was I that good? Absolutely not! But I had that "attitude"......the one that says, "I can do anything you want, if you'll give me the tools. 9 hole executive, 18 or 27 holes, anything. If you'll give me the chance, I can always call someone in this industry to help me through any problems that may come up."

    That "agronomist" was John Hamilton, handling all of the Nicklaus projects all over Asia. He was more than a little upset that I didn't take the job he wanted me for in Malaysia, but he supported me 100% when I decided on the golf course in Guam. We became best friends, and remain so to this day. He was the catalyst that began my international career.

    John Borcher,

    I don't believe that you have to work your way up to anything. You have the fire. That's all you need. If a project came up, I would visit you. Based on our conversation, and obviously having to visit your property, I can predict that I would lean toward making you an offer on the spot. You have a great future.

    And Mel,

    I could not care less that you work at a course named "Horton Smith". I already know a lot about you from these forums. I would still fly out to see you and look at what you have done....and what you have done it with. My gut feeling is that I would hire you in a heartbeat.

    Prestigious golf courses turn out very capable superintendents. Having said that, so do the properties that few have ever heard of.

    Jeff

    PS: Wow! I didn't mean to write a novel. I only wanted to beat Sean's post about insurance. Did I beat him? Who wants to count letters? I don't.



  15. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/6/2012 8:01 PM
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said: Okay, you guys need to stop beating me up. I'm a sensitive kind of guy, and cry easily. I'm pathetic. But you all know that. But what will we do for sport?

    I took all compliments from members, or guests, on the course condition at my first $2.5 million budget course with a grain of salt. Sure, I was flattered, but when you have 55 employees, it's kind of tough to take credit for a spotless golf course. Having 6 fairway mowers, 6 rough mowers, 12 walk-behind greens mowers, 3 greens aerators, etc., etc., etc., it's somewhat disingenuous to proudly claim that your course is in perfect shape....because of you. I had so many bodies to work with, if there was a section of the cart path that wasn't edged, swept and washed, I should have been fired.

    Jeff, it works that way with a handful as well, I always remind our golfers of that when I get a compliment that it's the crew that deserves all the credit




    Especially the really old ones, which includes most of you, but not me. I tried to change my logon name to Dorian Gray, but they refused. So unfair. Why are you picking on the Capt? He is the only one older then the rest of us isn't he?


    And Mel,

    I could not care less that you work at a course named "Horton Smith". I already know a lot about you from these forums. I would still fly out to see you and look at what you have done....and what you have done it with. My gut feeling is that I would hire you in a heartbeat. Don't pay any attention to that comment above, (I am looking for another game to play, back to the politics thread)

    Jeff

    PS: Wow! I didn't mean to write a novel. I only wanted to beat Sean's post about insurance. Did I beat him? Who wants to count letters? I don't.


    Very nice post Jeff, thanks for the pep talk to all of us that might have came up from a different direction, and to everyone in the business. I say both your and Sean's post are winners since they are different topics.

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  16. Robert Crockett
    Robert Crockett avatar
    4 posts
    1/8/2012 7:01 AM
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said: Okay, you guys need to stop beating me up. I'm a sensitive kind of guy, and cry easily. I'm pathetic. But you all know that.

    I talked with John by phone for quite awhile. He happens to be a very intelligent young man.

    I'm sticking by my recommendation. Not referring specifically to John's situation, but as a second, one has to rise to first. Maybe the first has no intention of moving on. What then are the choices?

    I think it takes guts to jump to that first superintendent position, on either a 9 or 18 hole property.

    I took all compliments from members, or guests, on the course condition at my first $2.5 million budget course with a grain of salt. Sure, I was flattered, but when you have 55 employees, it's kind of tough to take credit for a spotless golf course. Having 6 fairway mowers, 6 rough mowers, 12 walk-behind greens mowers, 3 greens aerators, etc., etc., etc., it's somewhat disingenuous to proudly claim that your course is in perfect shape....because of you. I had so many bodies to work with, if there was a section of the cart path that wasn't edged, swept and washed, I should have been fired.

    I agree that there are many superintendents out there that simply "bleed or sweat" information on a daily basis, and I'm proud to know many of them. But, that information is only absorbed by someone with talent. Talent they had before working for that superintendent.

    What is a second asst. going to learn after 3 years? Maybe they're mentally programmed, and can follow orders to the letter, but what decisions are they asked to make on a daily basis? Decisions that could affect the entire property?

    I've sent assistants on their way up because I knew they were ready to shoulder the burden of decisions that could possibly get them fired. Isn't that the point of advancement? It's the Peter Principle. I don't need a man or woman that has reached the top of their abilities, because I taught them everything that "they" could learn. And usually, they had reached that threshold working for me. I was always there for the "big" decisions. That simply doesn't work for someone that has the drive, and smarts, to make that leap.

    I can tell you, after talking to John, that he is prepared to take that leap. Maybe he won't. He's read a lot of opinions from a lot of qualified superintendents on this forum. Only he knows what his limitations are at this point in his life. So you're all correct, if he's not ready. I guess I could be correct, if he is ready.

    We talked about that, and he understands that I was simply supporting "whatever" path he chose. I mean, there is SO much information available on this forum, that he "could" head to a goat track and still have the support of all of us, while turning it around.

    Especially the really old ones, which includes most of you, but not me. I tried to change my logon name to Dorian Gray, but they refused. So unfair.

    Bottom line is that not everyone is willing, or able, to take on the role of superintendent when young. I took that chance, and jumped from a well known facility with a huge budget, to a no-name course that had my salary taking up 20% of the entire maintenance budget. But....it was the best move I ever made. People talk, and they talk about course conditions. They don't "usually" talk about the name. I did circulate my resume, with photos, and one day I received a call from an agronomist with the Nicklaus organization. He shared my philosophy, and couldn't care less about my course name. Next thing I knew.....I was interviewing with owners at 8 sites throughout SE Asia. Would I have received that call if my title was second, or first assistant? No. My title was "superintendent".

    My life and career changed overnight. Was I that good? Absolutely not! But I had that "attitude"......the one that says, "I can do anything you want, if you'll give me the tools. 9 hole executive, 18 or 27 holes, anything. If you'll give me the chance, I can always call someone in this industry to help me through any problems that may come up."

    That "agronomist" was John Hamilton, handling all of the Nicklaus projects all over Asia. He was more than a little upset that I didn't take the job he wanted me for in Malaysia, but he supported me 100% when I decided on the golf course in Guam. We became best friends, and remain so to this day. He was the catalyst that began my international career.

    John Borcher,

    I don't believe that you have to work your way up to anything. You have the fire. That's all you need. If a project came up, I would visit you. Based on our conversation, and obviously having to visit your property, I can predict that I would lean toward making you an offer on the spot. You have a great future.

    And Mel,

    I could not care less that you work at a course named "Horton Smith". I already know a lot about you from these forums. I would still fly out to see you and look at what you have done....and what you have done it with. My gut feeling is that I would hire you in a heartbeat.

    Prestigious golf courses turn out very capable superintendents. Having said that, so do the properties that few have ever heard of.

    Jeff

    PS: Wow! I didn't mean to write a novel. I only wanted to beat Sean's post about insurance. Did I beat him? Who wants to count letters? I don't.

    Very Well Written SIR !!
    I believe Truly, that it ultimately comes down to Your Attitude and Your Nature. I did the 9-hole for 11yrs...It was my Nature to Please and do more than what was expected . I was young and in the shape of a firefighter, because you never new what the day would bring. Relationships where very hard...because I was too dedicated during the season. Multitasking was a no brainer and the course was priority #1. I was well respected for my work ethic and dedication. I was a very well organized machine really. Ran 5 miles/day and worked out for 1.5hrs/day. I was the 3% body fat @ the age of 39. I'm 50 yrs young now....and run a small 18 hole "Municipal" course. Wouldn't change a thing for the fact that I slowed down enough to meet my wife @ the ripe age of 50. Honestly don't have tooooo many regrets. If I changed 1 thing I wouldn't have met her. That being said, the 9 -hole experience "Did Limit me", But it was a lifestyle choice that taught me Selflessness, Dedication and Endurance, that for me and my situation applies in Anything I challenge.



  17. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    1/8/2012 9:01 AM
    John,
    There are far more great courses then there are great employers. Find a great employer work hard enjoy life. If you think working 70-80 hours a week is going to make you happy you can find lots of 9,18, 27,.... hole courses that will make you happy. The trap is that someday you may want to work 50 hours a week and the first thing your employer thinks when something goes bad is " he does not work as hard as he used to". A good employer would never think it healthy to have a employee [u">regularly[/u"> work that many hours.

    Good Luck,



  18. Alan McCormick
    Alan McCormick avatar
    0 posts
    1/21/2012 5:01 PM
    OK everyone, here is a continuation to John's question. I'm the only assistant at a course and am looking at a superintendent job for a 9 hole complex, but it has three superintendents. The up-scale 18 hole course has a super, and the other 36 holes has another super, the job I'm applying for is a 9 hole course within this complex. Would it be good to get my foot in the door here, or would I just be getting all the leftovers when it comes to equipment and trying to do basic operations?

    Alan



  19. Fleegel Timothy
    Fleegel Timothy avatar
    1/21/2012 11:01 PM
    Hey Alan. One thing I first thought of reading your post. How often do supers at this facility move on? If anything it would be a great opportunity to move ahead in the business. Who knows, maybe you'll move up quickly at that facility. Have they offered you the job or are you just thinking about applying for it?



  20. Alan McCormick
    Alan McCormick avatar
    0 posts
    1/22/2012 11:01 AM
    I've applied for it, but the deadline isn't for another couple of weeks. If anything, just going through the interview process if I get a call back would be good experience.



  21. Fleegel Timothy
    Fleegel Timothy avatar
    1/22/2012 4:01 PM
    It doesn't hurt to apply, unless your boss reads this not knowing you're thing about trying to move up in the industry. One thing I had more experience with is interviewing and selling myself, to potential employers not on the corner of 5th and main.



  22. Mark Van Lienden
    Mark Van Lienden avatar
    14 posts
    1/30/2012 9:01 AM
    The people who claim that they appreciate you more at a nine hole course have probley never worked at one.I felt that I learned more at a nine hole course worked harder and was apperciated less.I found it harder to be accepted back at an 18 hole course while working at the nine hole course.



  23. Duncan McGowan
    Duncan McGowan avatar
    0 posts
    2/14/2012 10:02 AM
    Hi John,

    This is a very good question and i would like to give my insight.

    I was in a very similar situation 7 years ago. I had just graduated from college with a degree in Agronomy and ideally was looking for an assistant position at a well respected 18 hole private club.

    By luck or good fortune i was offered the superintendent position in my hometown. It is a small family orientated 9 hole private course. Like you i was hesitant about managing a 9 hole course with the long term goal of being a superintendent at a well respected 18 hole golf course.

    I ended up accepting the position and my first year i was the superintendent in training. My first year as the superintendent was pretty much trial by fire. I made some mistakes but i gained valuable insight from these mistakes. Overall the members were very pleased and have been since my arrival. Since this is a "working superintendent" position i had to do it all...spray, mechanic, irrigation tech, ect. Problems needed to be solved quickly or the job didnt get done. I learned alot in short amount of time and still to this day im learning.

    In regards to you possibly moving up the ladder to a nice 18 hole course... Its certainly possible. One poster mentioned a" pile of dirt and some rocks but once moved into the right places was a Japanese garden" Its all about what you can do. I know im my area there have been a few 9 hole supers that have moved on to some really nice positions.

    Finally id like to mention that you may take a 9 hole super position and really enjoy it. I have a good salary, alot of downtime in the winter, and the members really appreciate what i do. My thoughts on moving up the ladder has changed significantly over the past few years.... Seeing friends take the prestigious 18 hole private super position only to be canned a few years later.. In some cases its not all that its cracked up to be.

    Hope this wasnt too long and i hope it helps

    Good luck
    Duncan McGowan
    LCC Superintendnet



  24. Virgil Range
    Virgil Range avatar
    0 posts
    4/2/2012 4:04 AM
    John,

    I was in your shoes up until last year. I was an assistant in st louis and chicago at high end clubs for 8 years. I decided to venture out and apply for a supt job. There wasn't to many open when i started but 2-9 hole clubs where open. I applied to both and both offered me jobs. I took one. I go from a million dollar budget to squat.

    When I took over, the place was a mess...horrible equipment, irrigation a mess, but most of all, dead greens...There were tarps on every green that were seeded from the fall 2010. And the crew was ridiculous.

    After spring arrived last year i went hard at it...working long hrs getting things back in somewhat good shape. After about 3 months go by I was told by many members that its the best the club has looked in 30 years. All it needed was a little hard work and some TLC.

    Now into my 2nd year, Im so glad I decided to take the 9 hole job. Sure my overall goal is to run a 18 hole but I have a pretty good gig here. They are buying new equipment, letting me pretty much do what I do as long as the results are there. So far so good on that.

    I do suggest to take a supt job when you can get it. Its totally different than an assistant and sometimes it tough as hell but worth it.

    Take pics and notes on everything you do your first year. Well every year but the first is most important. I took at pics all the time and still cant believe that the place use to look like shit and now its amazing.

    If you have any questions, please feel free and ask since I have done what you are thinking about just last year.

    Thanks
    Virgil Range
    Maryville CC
    Maryville MO



  25. Kenneth Ingram
    Kenneth Ingram avatar
    18 posts
    4/11/2012 7:04 AM
    Make sure you spell Superintendent correctly on your correspondence. Kenneth Ingram, UMD



  26. Ronald Kirkman
    Ronald Kirkman avatar
    42 posts
    5/1/2012 5:05 PM
    Greetings Mr. John Borcher;

    I think there is somewhere between 4000 and 5000 nine hole golf courses in the U.S. And, I fully understand it is a difficult choice to accept the position as superintendent of a nine hole golf course from your present position. I do realize I am a bit late in answering your post. However, I will inform you about my experience at Needham Golf Club, Needham, MA a nine hole golf course. I won't get into detail about being the supt., assistant, mechanic and spray tech etc.

    I only mention the next paragraph to show you that I took the bull by the horn and showed the membership they could have a golf course they could be proud of. The only fairways we had water on were 4-5-6. In 1962, my full time man and I installed a double row manual water system on our par 5 - 1st. hole and par 4 third hole using galvanized pipe. He had a friend with a backhoe. Those were the days of fun, cutting and threading that pipe. The membership really appreciated having green grass on the fairway . In 1963 I painted the bottom of the flag sticks black about two feet up. We did this because of the glare of the sun. It was much easier now to see the hole and you could judge the distance better. I firmly believe we were the first club to do this.

    OK – I know you don't want to read the BS of what we accomplished on the golf course but you'd rather hear about the pay, benefits, understand the politics, and keep your sanity all those kinds of things. I will add, even 50 years ago there were some superintendents that looked down on a 9 hole superintendent and I would be lying if I said that didn't hurt. He runs half a golf course HA! – HA! –and any kid could do that. I truly believe that the superintendent of a 9 hole golf course understands and appreciates the problems and responsibilities the 18 hole superintendent has much more so than the 18 hole supt. understands the 9 hole supt. problems.
    Now, we can't all be superintendents at Pebble Beach, Augusta and all the other great golf courses we see on TV every week. But, we can respect each other those that got the break and those that didn't. I think we all want a decent job, a good life, respect and camaraderie.

    When I started I think my pay was a hundred dollars per week and I lived in their house and I paid the utilities except for water. After one year I received a $5.00 per week raise and a $250.00 Christmas bonus. The following three years raises were hard to come by. However, I talked the green chairman into a three year deal paying the electric bill. The next year the oil bill and the next year blue cross and blue shield. That deal is still in effect today.

    In 1972 I received my Certification (CGCS) and I was one proud puppy when I received my certificate along with about 15 other superintendents on stage at the GCSAA Conference in Cincinnati. For reasons I won't get into, I never renewed in 1977 but wish I had.

    Being a small club the Board of governors and their committees managed the clubhouse. The club contracted the food out to a company and they took care of the grill room and function hall. Needham was always a dry town but things change and we were about to get our liquor license if the voters voted it in. (they did) now, the ballgame has changed and the work became too much for the members. My treasurer then was a retired Dean of Admissions at Northeastern University. He respected education and he knew I tried to improve myself and stay up with the times and CGCS meant a lot to him. Hence, he recommended to the Board that they give me a shot at being manager. In 1974 I accepted the position with a $4,000.00 increase in salary. I was rich! I booked the hall, ordered the spirits, hired the bartenders, set up the hall and cleaned the clubhouse banked and recorded the money. My responsibilities included everything the club needed from locker rooms to the kitchen. I was responsible for all lockers and patrons and all kitchen equipment. I also secured the clubhouse. There were times when I would fix a toilet at 10 p. m. and the next day cut greens at 5:30 a.m.

    I know there are superintendents who bitch about their managers and probably rightfully so. However, unless you have ever been on their side of the fence you would realize the Manager's job is no picnic. He/she is under a great deal of pressure dealing with so many personalities of the membership. The drink is too weak – too strong – the soup is cold – it is too hot – you get the picture. Now, the weak or unqualified manager will take out their frustrations on the staff in the clubhouse, pro shop and on the golf course. And, believe it or not this has cost a lot of superintendent jobs. The smart manager will keep peace between all department heads, will listen and communicate with the superintendent and golf pro and prevent any grievances from taking place.

    Some on the Board wanted a contract. The President that hired me was a lawyer and he drew up the contract. The Board looked at it and said this favors the superintendent and that is the last I ever heard of a contract.
    The club did pay my GCSAA, New England and Cape Cod Association dues. I did not join the Managers Association.

    Time went on, raises got much better. I even had an IRA where the club paid me $166.66 per month and the max at the time was $2000.00/year you could contribute to an IRA. I had a member set up a SEP – Simplified Employee Pension Plan. He was affiliated with Merrill Lynch. The club did not contribute but they paid the fee. I used to put in $900 per month. This account is now with Morgan Stanley Smith Barney. The SEP has been abandoned since I retired as superintendent.

    When I completed 25 years of service the president, green chairman & treasurer asked me to meet them at the clubhouse. They presented me with a clock, set of golf irons and a $2,500.00 bonus. The green chairman told me to collect the $2,500 every year thereafter. My final check was October, 2011, which is the end of our fiscal year.

    When I reached 30 years the club threw a party for me. I gave the club a list of superintendents and vendors and we had a golf tournament. Superintendents & vendors played with members. The evening festivities were awesome. There were lots of accolades, speeches, you know the whole deal. Much to my surprise the club sent my wife and I on a 7 day round trip to Hawaii, Honolulu and Maui with all hotels at the Hyatt Regency. They also paid for a rental car on Maui and a few days before the trip the chairman gave us $600 spending money.

    My next GCSAA show after Cincinnati and Boston was the GCSAA show in St. Louis, I think the year was 1980 and following that the club picked up the tab for the next 25 years for me to attend the conference. I think I played in the golf tournament about twenty times and the club picked up that tab four times.

    Before I knew it 45 years had passed and it was time for my assistant to take over the golf course. We contacted the supers and vendors once again to come and play golf and then attend a retirement party in the evening and those that couldn't play golf please come to the night party. I had to sit in the middle of the floor on a chair of course and I got roasted I mean ROASTED. I mean 45 years at one club as head super – I guess there will be a lot of stories to tell.

    I still managed the club for the next few years. I guess that totaled about 36 or 37 years. The club was planning on building a new clubhouse and in November 2010 the president and vice president called me to a meeting. They informed me they were hiring a new manager. I said I know it and they wanted to know how I knew. I said you are not inviting me to a meeting to tell me you are giving me a 3% raise and you are certainly not doubling my salary. You are starting a new clubhouse and you want to take it to the next level. I told them to relax and I informed them that I am too old to take on that responsibility. Well, they asked me to stay through the fiscal year of October, 2011, and help out the new manager. Of course I will and I did. The new clubhouse opened in June of 2011.

    Come November 2011, I figured I'd work for 6 months on the golf course at only 20 hours per week and collect for 6 months. That did not happen. Why you ask? At the November Board meeting the new manager was asked what she would like, anything you want realistically. HA – she wanted Ronnie – so I said yes at 20 hours per week and no weekends. I record all the dues in quick book and bank the checks – all the bills that come in have to be signed by the appropriate department head and I file them in bills to be paid. When paid I file them appropriately in the proper file. I am a book keeper.

    You know what? I'm on salary for 20 hours per week. My office is in the basement of the new clubhouse and the computer is in the board room on the 1st. floor. The basement is nice but I don't spend much time in there.
    Here's the deal – I received a contract to live in the house – no strings attached – I do work more than 20 hours per week but only get paid for 20 and that is $13.00 per hour. That's ok something to do.

    This past August they renamed the annual Member Guest Tournament after me. It is now called the Kirkman Invitational. I had to go to the opening night dinner and the president informed me that I would have to say a few words. I did a lot of thinking about it before I wrote it. Here it is.

    "It is an honor to have this tournament named after me. It has been the keystone event of every golf season at Needham Golf Club for many decades. Whatever I accomplished over the years reflects the dedication, support and generosity of the presidents, green chairman, Board of Directors and members of Needham Golf Club who made it possible. Needham Golf Club has given me an opportunity for fulfilling a career and as I stand before you tonight, the word thank you seems hardly adequate to express my thoughts."

    I must say Mr. Tim Hood the new superintendent at Needham is doing a superb job. He has been with me for a number of years and he is correcting all my mistakes.

    Mr. John Borcher – Go and don't look back. Have the confidence to make the right decision.

    Mr. Mark van Lienden I hope after this post you might change your mind on whether or not 9 hole superintendents are appreciated .

    Capt. Kirk
    Retired Alien
    Needham Golf Club
    Needham, MA



  27. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    5/1/2012 9:05 PM
    Geez Ron,

    And I thought I wrote long posts!

    Yours was excellent......and you should be proud of what you accomplished. Congrats! And good on you for giving John a positive "Go for it!"

    Jeff



  28. Mark Van Lienden
    Mark Van Lienden avatar
    14 posts
    5/2/2012 7:05 AM
    Kirk,
    You obviously found yourself a home.As of my post on being appreciated there were many at the 9 hole course and many at the different 18 hole courses who did appreciate what I did.I would say the ones who didn't were that way because of where they were in the country rather than 9 or 18 hole facility.I felt that in my case it was harder to get back to an 18 hole course because the powers that be did not understand that a 9 hole course required as many hours as a superintendent if not more.They have the same agronomic demands just usually less equipment.The questions I got were" do you think you could handle an 18 hole course?"What I wanted to say, but never did was ," I can if I take off more time."My response here was just to show that 9 hole superintendents are treated differently in the public eye than 18 hole superintendents.



  29. Ronald Kirkman
    Ronald Kirkman avatar
    42 posts
    5/2/2012 8:05 AM
    Jeffrey,

    You are right, I was a bit long winded. I took out a lot of things like we have a chemical bldg, above ground diesel
    & gasoline tanks, golf lift. Automatic watering system, toro greens & fairway aerifyer, top-dressers, tractors, etc.etc.etc. I think my message i wanted to get out to the younger ladies and gentlemen is that anything is possible whether or not your at a 9 - 18- 27 -36 - or more hole golf course or a par 3 or a pitch & putt.

    Mark,

    You are absolutely right - it is a difficult situation at best to have a chance at an 18 holer leaving a 9 holer but it has been done.

    Capt.Kirk
    Retired Alien
    Needham Golf Club
    Needham, MA



  30. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    5/2/2012 3:05 PM
    Ronald Kirkman said: Jeffrey,

    I think my message i wanted to get out to the younger ladies and gentlemen....

    Capt.Kirk
    Retired Alien
    Needham Golf Club
    Needham, MA



    Wait a minute......I thought I WAS one of the "younger gentlemen" on this forum. Is anyone on here younger than 56?

    And stop calling me Jeffrey. The only person that's required to address me as "Jeffrey", or "Mr. Wallace", is Pet. I mean Pete.

    Cheers,

    Jeff



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