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Definition of middle income

40 posts
  1. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    9/14/2012 1:09 PM
    In an interview with George Stephanopoulos, Gov. Romney was quoted as saying taxes won't go up on middle income people, when asked what middle income was Gov. Romney stated $200,000 - 250,000. When asked if $100,000 was middle income, Romney said no. i wonder what his definition of poverty is? Heck I might be in it.

    I have since seen other stories where Gov. Romney said it's $250,000 and under. I guess these distinctions and definitions need to be spelled out on both sides to truly see how policies will affect each of us.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  2. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    9/14/2012 1:09 PM
    I get the impression that most of the contributors on here are $300,000+. They have to be in order to have the political views that they do. Otherwise, their opinions would not make any sense.



  3. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    9/14/2012 2:09 PM
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said: I get the impression that most of the contributors on here are $300,000+. They have to be in order to have the political views that they do. Otherwise, their opinions would not make any sense.


    I only make $299,999.99 but still won't vote for Obama. I must be an idiot, a racist, and a bigot.



  4. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    9/14/2012 5:09 PM
    Speaking of Obama, Romney and wealth, what would each of you think if you had started saving when you were lets say, 21. You invested diligently and put together somewhere between $400,000 and $750,000 in things like 401k's, IRA's etc. Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing when you hit retirement to find that Capital gains, which you would be collecting went from 19% tax to somewhere in the 30+%range? If you guys think Romney is clueless with the middle class, how about Obama for wanting to destroy a huge percentage of what many had saved to have an enjoyable retirement. Are these people the evil filthy disgusting rich? Of course not, they are every day people that saved and invested diligently and took advantage of compounding and survived several market downturns. Many in the middle class will be severely impacted by Obama's need to spread other peoples wealth. Again, who is more out of touch with reality?



  5. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    9/15/2012 9:09 AM
    [This post has been removed in conjunction with GCSAA's forum policy.]



  6. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    9/15/2012 9:09 AM
    I have no idea what dollar figure constitutes the middle class. I know of people that live in a much bigger home than I, drive newer and facier cars and probably make more combined income than my wife and I but live paycheck to paycheck........the types that bought more than they both can afford or need and like to look good arriving at work, the country club or out to dinner.

    We live comfortably, home paid for , autos paid for and each and every credit card bill is paid in full each month we have charges on one.........not rich excpet by Scott's standards and certainly not poor.......I guess the middle class............I am one of those guys that Scott sterotyped like Sandy, Pete, Clay and others. Damn if I were only a democrat and a liberal I would be perfect !



  7. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    9/15/2012 12:09 PM
    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: Speaking of Obama, Romney and wealth, what would each of you think if you had started saving when you were lets say, 21. You invested diligently and put together somewhere between $400,000 and $750,000 in things like 401k's, IRA's etc. Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing when you hit retirement to find that Capital gains, which you would be collecting went from 19% tax to somewhere in the 30+%range? If you guys think Romney is clueless with the middle class, how about Obama for wanting to destroy a huge percentage of what many had saved to have an enjoyable retirement. Are these people the evil filthy disgusting rich? Of course not, they are every day people that saved and invested diligently and took advantage of compounding and survived several market downturns. Many in the middle class will be severely impacted by Obama's need to spread other peoples wealth. Again, who is more out of touch with reality?


    Sandy, I'm not the smart financial type guy, but say if you did save that much money and started taking back from the fund when you retire, you wouldn't ask for all that money at once triggering a capital gains tax would you? Wouldn't you take a distribution that would be more like your salary when you were working, wouldn't that be taxed a similar rate to your income? Wouldn't there be ways to still have deductions to take your tax burden down, like paying for higher medical costs, (they get higher as you get older don't they?) if still paying a mortgage so you get deductions? I am sure that there will be tax breaks that person can take advantage of to avoid the 30%+ range wouldn't there be? Now if you have invested in a different model, then I can see capital gains taxes I suppose, but currently it's suppose to be about 20% and even if the president's plan was put into place it would only be on the gain made above $250,000? So can't that money be diverted into other accounts to avoid the higher tax?

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  8. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    9/15/2012 5:09 PM
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said: I have saved for retirement, expect to be comfortable, but certainly will not have the income to be in a 30% tax bracket. If you have that much, pay your taxes or move and quit complaining. I heard that Pete is an idiot, a racist, and a bigot, btw.



    Having recently been on the receiving end of an attempted carachter assassination by a fellow GCSAA member, I am going to suggest the you remove or edit this post. It is contrary to our rules and you really should rethink this.

    Steve



  9. Keith Pegg
    Keith Pegg avatar
    0 posts
    9/15/2012 6:09 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: In an interview with George Stephanopoulos, Gov. Romney was quoted as saying taxes won't go up on middle income people, when asked what middle income was Gov. Romney stated $200,000 - 250,000. When asked if $100,000 was middle income, Romney said no. i wonder what his definition of poverty is? Heck I might be in it.

    I have since seen other stories where Gov. Romney said it's $250,000 and under. I guess these distinctions and definitions need to be spelled out on both sides to truly see how policies will affect each of us.

    Mel

    4% of Americans make over 200 grand a year that's close to middle, right?

    keith



  10. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    9/15/2012 6:09 PM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said: I have saved for retirement, expect to be comfortable, but certainly will not have the income to be in a 30% tax bracket. If you have that much, pay your taxes or move and quit complaining. I heard that Pete is an idiot, a racist, and a bigot, btw.



    Having recently been on the receiving end of an attempted carachter assassination by a fellow GCSAA member, I am going to suggest the you remove or edit this post. It is contrary to our rules and you really should rethink this.

    Steve


    Thank you for your concern Steve, but controversy seems to be my life. I am a former President of our state turfgrass association and I am probably less popular with those guys than I am with this forum. You either love me or you hate me. I don't care. I am not going to change my position except for what is right. You can count on me for that.

    PS: Pete said he was those things.



  11. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    9/15/2012 7:09 PM
    I have never been into leadership for what it can do for me. The only goals I have ever had in life were to raise my kids, facilitate their educations and put them into a position where they could make it. I had to do leadership in order to make enough money to achieve my goals for my kids. In the course of leadership I determined that it was best if my followers enjoyed their work and looked forward to their week. I did my best to make sure their work was a pleasure. My kids are grown and pretty much set. My employees are happy and know I am there for them if they need me. It is good to be Scott.



  12. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    9/16/2012 7:09 AM
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said:
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said: I have saved for retirement, expect to be comfortable, but certainly will not have the income to be in a 30% tax bracket. If you have that much, pay your taxes or move and quit complaining. I heard that Pete is an idiot, a racist, and a bigot, btw.



    Having recently been on the receiving end of an attempted carachter assassination by a fellow GCSAA member, I am going to suggest the you remove or edit this post. It is contrary to our rules and you really should rethink this.

    Steve


    Thank you for your concern Steve, but controversy seems to be my life. I am a former President of our state turfgrass association and I am probably less popular with those guys than I am with this forum. You either love me or you hate me. I don't care. I am not going to change my position except for what is right. You can count on me for that.

    PS: Pete said he was those things.


    Steve H.: Ya, I did say that. Scott pretty much implied that I must be a billionaire, a racist, and/or an idiot to vote for Romney - and I'm no billionaire - and Steve K pretty much said I was a bigot. No need to remove your post. I don't get offended. Just words. All my years as a kid my Mother never did wear Army boots. Not once.



  13. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    9/17/2012 9:09 AM
    To get back to the question....As I listened to the talking heads, it does sound like and of course it all depends on what tax "loopholes" are closed, Gov. Romney and President Obama are using about the same cut off line on the tax issue, $250,000. I'm sure there are more details to make each one's proposals a little different. Let's learn those and then debate.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  14. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    9/17/2012 10:09 AM
    4% may make 200K but what about working husbands and wives in bigger cities where the cost of living is much higher than most of the country. That 4% more than likely only counts individuals. It is not uncommon for two people to combine to make 200K and in those high tax locations, they are comfortable but certainly not rich. I think it is ridiculous to think they are somehow not deserving to make that kind of money no matter how hard they work and have people insist they should pay even more tax. Wouldn't you think those that save smartly should be looked at as a positive thing since they won't be a burden on society?



  15. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    9/17/2012 12:09 PM
    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: 4% may make 200K but what about working husbands and wives in bigger cities where the cost of living is much higher than most of the country. That 4% more than likely only counts individuals. It is not uncommon for two people to combine to make 200K and in those high tax locations, they are comfortable but certainly not rich. I think it is ridiculous to think they are somehow not deserving to make that kind of money no matter how hard they work and have people insist they should pay even more tax. Wouldn't you think those that save smartly should be looked at as a positive thing since they won't be a burden on society?


    Sandy, I agree about those that can save smartly, but aren't there many savings vehicles that can be used to avoid paying taxes on incomes?

    I also agree with your statement about 200,000 might just be comfortable say in a metropolitan area or heck it might not be middle income in some areas of Long Island and other places like that, especially when they are paying higher state and local taxes? But can they not deduct those taxes from their federal taxes? I guess when we start looking at all other factors we can understand somewhat how the tax codes got the way they are. But that doesn't change what our/the government's obligations are. And those obligations should certainly be up for debate.

    Your statement about insisting on those making that money paying more taxes not being fair should be more defined, most making that money are taking advantage of every available tax incentive that they can, so what is the real percentage of tax are they paying? Is 35% too much? It probably is, until you see what they are actually paying, how about making it 10% for everyone, no deductions? Well those making minimum wage would really be affected by that, but if we run the numbers and it seems as fair as possible, why not do that? But to continue to fight that one side is right and the other is not, will not get to any solutions that are needed. Just my opinion.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  16. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    9/17/2012 1:09 PM
    Mel a capital gains tax is still a capital gains tax........whether you withdraw $10,000 at a time of that $750,000 you made or you take it three big chunks of $250,000.........it's 15 % (or whatever the rate is at the time you begin to withdaw) no matter how you slice it.

    And its nice to know it's good being Scott. Makes me tingly all over......



  17. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    9/17/2012 4:09 PM
    I know that I for one, look for every legal tax deduction possible. That is our civic duty since the deductions are offered to everyone. Anyone that has a tax expert doing their taxes better expect that kind of help or the tax preparer should be fired!



  18. Steven Kurta
    Steven Kurta avatar
    2 posts
    9/18/2012 4:09 AM
    Peter Bowman, CGCS said: I must be an idiot, a racist, and a bigot.


    Idiot is a little harsh.
    Don't get too down on yourself. And hey, if it was good enough for Archie Bunker, it's good enough for you.



  19. Steven Kurta
    Steven Kurta avatar
    2 posts
    9/18/2012 4:09 AM
    And sorry, I would've responded to this sooner, but have been away from internet connectivity in the wilds of Northern Ontario, currently somewhere between Echo Bay and Blind River. I called nobody a racist or a bigot. Your name wasn't mentioned once. That you've taken it personally and made it about you blows the point I was trying to make, to Sandy, out of the water.
    "thou dost protest too much" , something, something, etc. etc.



  20. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    9/18/2012 7:09 AM
    Even Warren Buffet takes every tax loophole avialable to him. If he did not as a billionaire he would pay more than his very highly compensated secretary percentage wise......."thou dost protest too much"



  21. Ashton Alan W
    Ashton Alan W avatar
    9/18/2012 9:09 AM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: To get back to the question....As I listened to the talking heads, it does sound like and of course it all depends on what tax "loopholes" are closed, Gov. Romney and President Obama are using about the same cut off line on the tax issue, $250,000. I'm sure there are more details to make each one's proposals a little different. Let's learn those and then debate.

    Mel


    You tried Mel! (emphasis mine)

    The $250,000 number isn't the argument to me... it's been the number since the Bush era cuts were established. I'll go with that number being a upper middle income family, high end number... the only question is whether to extend it for those above that line, as well as those below...



  22. Keith Fellenstein
    Keith Fellenstein avatar
    0 posts
    9/18/2012 10:09 AM
    Alan Ashton said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: To get back to the question....As I listened to the talking heads, it does sound like and of course it all depends on what tax "loopholes" are closed, Gov. Romney and President Obama are using about the same cut off line on the tax issue, $250,000. I'm sure there are more details to make each one's proposals a little different. Let's learn those and then debate.

    Mel


    You tried Mel! (emphasis mine)

    The $250,000 number isn't the argument to me... it's been the number since the Bush era cuts were established. I'll go with that number being a upper middle income family, high end number... the only question is whether to extend it for those above that line, as well as those below...


    Mel,
    It does seem as though both candidates are using the same cut-off point...I guess we can argue that number but no matter where the cut-offis, it will be too high for some and too low for others. It is interesting that Biden was chastising Romney for the very same number Obama has been using all along.



  23. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    9/18/2012 10:09 PM
    Pathetic. Truly pathetic coming from a Presidential candidate, let alone a sitting President.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdjoHA5ocwU



  24. Steven Kurta
    Steven Kurta avatar
    2 posts
    9/19/2012 6:09 AM
    I think it's all starting to boil down to who gets the hispanic and black vote. Romney screwed himself talking tough in the primaries with the hispanics and looks, from that video, like Obama is going to try to freeze him out of the black vote. I wonder if this will work on wALLACe.

    On the face of it, regarding Romney, it's getting harder to understand what's going into his decision making. Can't tell if his campaign management is crumbling or what. Also, some pretty hard pitches thrown at them by the liberal machine. Nowhere to hide. The debates are his last chance? And even then, there are so many questions about him. The latest from CNN on Romney's attempt at placating hispanics sounds like it went terrible. More foot in mouth stuff. http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/19/politics/romney-latino-vote/
    Dunno, seems like the beginnings of a death spiral



  25. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    9/20/2012 11:09 AM
    Steven Kurta said: I think it's all starting to boil down to who gets the hispanic and black vote. Romney screwed himself talking tough in the primaries with the hispanics and looks, from that video, like Obama is going to try to freeze him out of the black vote. I wonder if this will work on wALLACe.

    On the face of it, regarding Romney, it's getting harder to understand what's going into his decision making. Can't tell if his campaign management is crumbling or what. Also, some pretty hard pitches thrown at them by the liberal machine. Nowhere to hide. The debates are his last chance? And even then, there are so many questions about him. The latest from CNN on Romney's attempt at placating hispanics sounds like it went terrible. More foot in mouth stuff. http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/19/politics/romney-Latino-vote/
    Dunno, seems like the beginnings of a death spiral


    Steve who in the video was the interviewer? I believe that more Latinos side with the President of the Latino organization than with this lady and that small sampling in the poll. I thought the gentleman got his point across rather well considering her spinning the questions.



  26. Robert Crockett
    Robert Crockett avatar
    4 posts
    9/20/2012 11:09 AM
    Peter Bowman, CGCS said: Pathetic. Truly pathetic coming from a Presidential candidate, let alone a sitting President.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdjoHA5ocwU

    If that's not RACIST I GUESS THERE IS NO SUCH THING.....Could you see Romney putting an ad out to get all the White American votes?



  27. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    9/20/2012 12:09 PM
    Robert Crockett said:
    Peter Bowman, CGCS said: Pathetic. Truly pathetic coming from a Presidential candidate, let alone a sitting President.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdjoHA5ocwU

    If that's not RACIST I GUESS THERE IS NO SUCH THING.....Could you see Romney putting an ad out to get all the White American votes?


    What is truly pathetic is that Romney does not have to. White racism in his favor is a given as evidenced by so many white people voting for Romney against their own self interests.



  28. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    9/20/2012 12:09 PM
    [quote">What is truly pathetic is that Romney does not have to. White racism in his favor is a given as evidenced by so many white people voting for Romney against their own self interests.

    How about 95% of black vote in 2008 went to Obama. White vote 45%. Does that make the black population more racist than the white. 66% Hispanics voted for him along with 56% women. If he loses the election will that be a step back for Civil Rights? Riots? All due respect Scott that is a terrible statement.



  29. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    9/20/2012 1:09 PM
    Jon Gansen said: [quote">What is truly pathetic is that Romney does not have to. White racism in his favor is a given as evidenced by so many white people voting for Romney against their own self interests.


    How about 95% of black vote in 2008 went to Obama. White vote 45%. Does that make the black population more racist than the white. 66% Hispanics voted for him along with 56% women. If he loses the election will that be a step back for Civil Rights? Riots? All due respect Scott that is a terrible statement.

    I do not know the figures, but if true 45% of white folks and 5% of black wanted to put Sarah Palin within a heartbeat of the Presidency. That is truly pathetic.



  30. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    9/20/2012 1:09 PM
    [This post has been deleted in conjunction with GCSAA's forum policies.]



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