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Contamination in ultra dwarf greens

22 posts
  1. Joey Franco
    Joey Franco avatar
    0 posts
    6/28/2013 11:06 AM
    I have a group of members that seem to think we are the only golf course with contamination in our putting surfaces. Specifically Yellow Dog. I am curious where you are, what type of contamination and estimated square footage you may have in your putting surfaces. We are being very aggressive this year in removing the contamination. 8 people everyday are plugging the greens trying to get out as much as possible. We spray Round-Up one week prior to the next green being plugged. We have removed an estimated 4,000 square feet of plugs in the last three months. These greens (Champion) are not even 3 years old but we want to solve this issue before the contamination is out of control. What we are removing doesn't look like a mutation, especially since they are so young. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks.



  2. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    6/28/2013 11:06 AM
    I will NEVER understand why it's called "Yellowdog." Contamination it is. It's easier for members to understand and at the end of the day, that's what it is.
    Most courses with bermudagrass greens and/or even paspalum greens fight with contamination. Whether is be the surrounding turf creeping in from the edges or the random patch in the middle of the green. Plug, plug, plu, edge, edge, edge and be extra careful at aerification.
    Where the greens fumigated? Round/Up fusillade and basimid? Sounds likeyou may have gotten a bad batch of springs.



  3. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    6/28/2013 1:06 PM
    It's called Yellow Dog because that's what Morris Brown calls it.


    Regards,

    Steve



  4. Curtis Nickerson
    Curtis Nickerson avatar
    0 posts
    6/28/2013 2:06 PM
    Like Steve said, I too know a lot of folks with Champions and I don't know of a single course that is t contaminated ...



  5. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    6/28/2013 3:06 PM
    Remember that all dwarf or ultra dwarf grasses came about from the selection of a contaminate or mutation off an existing green. The contamination was performing better and was then developed as a better alternative to what was currently available. Since most contaminants are a mutation of some sort, the variety will also continue to mutate or shoot out mutated offspring. This can occur at the farm or on your course. The exception to this is TifEagle, which was irradiated in a lab in Tifton, Georgia. It is genetically pure, but is still susceptible to contaminants if the proper BMP's are not followed.

    Cut edges, plug, sod, etc....is the only way to manage it. I'm not sure you will eradicate, but you can manage the off-types easier with good diligence.

    Methyl Bromide will only kill what is in your soil, not the soil at the field. When regrassing, be sure to inspect the field multiple times before installation to look for these off-types. I say multiple times because a lot of time these contaminants are very hard to see during different seasons of the year, fertility cycles and mowing patterns. I would ask to see when the field was being mowed, then show up the day before so that you can see these contaminants while they are leggy. And walk the entire field, not just where you park the truck. Your grass won't be harvested in a 30' radius around where you are standing.



  6. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    6/28/2013 3:06 PM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: It's called Yellow Dog because that's what Morris Brown calls it.


    Regards,

    Steve

    I understand that, Steve. It's just a silly name to describe contamination. Seems like a lot of Champion is contaminated. Even some Mini Verde.

    Andy is spot on. Visiting the fields are import, especially with all the stories of contamination the last few years.



  7. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    6/28/2013 3:06 PM
    Anthony, the yellow dog is a specific kind of grass that shows up, if you've ever seen it, you would understand the name.

    Regards,

    Steve



  8. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    6/28/2013 3:06 PM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: Anthony, the yellow dog is a specific kind of grass that shows up, if you've ever seen it, you would understand the name.

    Regards,

    Steve


    I've seen it. Just wonder why we can't keep it simple and call it contamination. Members don't care, they just want it fixed and its easier to keep it simple with them.



  9. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    6/28/2013 4:06 PM
    Oh. When you said " I don't understand" I thought you meant "I don't understand". I didn't realize that what you meant to say was "that's stupid".



    Steve



  10. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    6/28/2013 7:06 PM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: Oh. When you said " I don't understand" I thought you meant "I don't understand". I didn't realize that what you meant to say was "that's stupid".



    Steve

    You got it. I think by calling it "yellow dog" is sort of a cop out for contamination. I think it's a little foolish for Morris to call it such. I have heard more and more stories of contamination or segregation on Champion. Wonder what the protocol is for ensuring the fields are clean. Steve-do you have Champion and if so, how old?



  11. Brian Powell
    Brian Powell avatar
    0 posts
    6/29/2013 6:06 AM
    I think one of the greatest misconceptions with any of the conversions (Tifdwarf to Ultradwarfs / Tifgreen to Ultradwarfs / Bentgrass to Ultradwarfs etc...) is you will be able to fumigate or spray a non-selective and be 100% effective in killing all of your former bermudagrass. This is important to note because a few sprigs here or there that make their way into your sprig bed, and then aerated during normal maintenance for a year or two can look like 100's of rogue plants when they came from just a few contaminants. I have seen contaminants in all of the major suppliers greens but I can't tell you any came from the actual sprig supplier and that's an important distinction. The only lawsuit I am aware of regards a mini-verde course. http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/jun/25/kensington-Turfgrass-America-turf-greens-TGA-Sod/?print=1

    Having said that I've seen great Champion, Tifeagle and Mini-Verde greens. I've also seen aeration plugs being re-incorporated into greens including aeration "cleanup" passes which seem likely to have some rhizomes from outside the green as well. Its always a good idea to go inspect your sprig suppliers crop. Its even a better one to push your aeration cores from the centers of your greens off your green surface before you pick them up.



  12. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    6/29/2013 6:06 AM
    Anthony Nysse said:
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: Oh. When you said " I don't understand" I thought you meant "I don't understand". I didn't realize that what you meant to say was "that's stupid".



    Steve

    You got it. I think by calling it "yellow dog" is sort of a cop out for contamination. I think it's a little foolish for Morris to call it such. I have heard more and more stories of contamination or segregation on Champion. Wonder what the protocol is for ensuring the fields are clean. Steve-do you have Champion and if so, how old?


    I do have Champion, it was installed in 2005. It is heavily contaminated with what appears to me to be Tifdwarf which was what was previously on them.its difficult to say where the contamination came from as Champion is a selection from a Tifdwarf green. It may have come from rhizomes from the previous grass that have since been moved around by aerifiers and verticutters. We are planning to re grass in the next few years and I have mixed emotions about putting Champion back on them.

    Regards,

    Steve



  13. Keith Lamb
    Keith Lamb avatar
    3 posts
    6/29/2013 7:06 AM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:

    I do have Champion, it was installed in 2005. It is heavily contaminated with what appears to me to be Tifdwarf which was what was previously on them.


    Same here. Ours done in 2004.



  14. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    6/29/2013 1:06 PM
    Keith Lamb said:
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:

    I do have Champion, it was installed in 2005. It is heavily contaminated with what appears to me to be Tifdwarf which was what was previously on them.


    Same here. Ours done in 2004.


    Same here and regrassed with Pike Creek Tifdwarf.



  15. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    6/29/2013 5:06 PM
    If it was up to me, I would probably use Jones dwarf.

    Steve



  16. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    6/29/2013 5:06 PM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: If it was up to me, I would probably use Jones dwarf.

    Steve


    Haile Plantation in Gainesville, Fl has 20 year old Jones Dwarf greens. I was there last month and they looked brand new, they were as pure as can be and looked phenomenal. Jones Dwarf was originally an off type that was pulled off a green here at another course in Ocala, and still has the ability to mutate. To date though, I am not aware of any Jones Dwarf greens with contamination issue. Randy Jones, Sr. Goes to great length to ensure the cleanliness of his turf, all the way through to planting, which they require is performed by them.



  17. Robinson John B
    Robinson John B avatar
    6/30/2013 7:06 AM
    Andy Jorgensen said:
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: If it was up to me, I would probably use Jones dwarf.

    Steve


    Haile Plantation in Gainesville, Fl has 20 year old Jones Dwarf greens. I was there last month and they looked brand new, they were as pure as can be and looked phenomenal. Jones Dwarf was originally an off type that was pulled off a green here at another course in Ocala, and still has the ability to mutate. To date though, I am not aware of any Jones Dwarf greens with contamination issue. Randy Jones, Sr. Goes to great length to ensure the cleanliness of his turf, all the way through to planting, which they require is performed by them.


    I remember during my time in Ocala always hearing that Jones turf was doing the best up there. I believe Tom Mcallister had planted it at Ocala CC and 10-15 years after planting, same thing...it looked brand new.
    Down here in southwest Florida there seem to be several courses with contamination issues. Some are definitely worse than others but only one do I recall the root cause being attributed to anything but mechanical displacement. Since contamination was noticed, practices have been changed, i.e. verti-cutting and aerifying a perimeter instead of going through the collars. Plugging out effected areas and edging greens on a regular basis are now the norm. The contamination problems seem in my opinion be on the decline but there does seem to be some weakness in a few areas due to the heavier material removal. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    John B. Robinson
    Cypress Lake Country Club



  18. Flanagan Darren C
    Flanagan Darren C avatar
    7/3/2013 1:07 PM
    We have Tifeagle here and we also have areas that are contaminated from 419; normally from the collars. Here is what we do to manage it;

    - Edge greens every 2-3 weeks in the summer
    - Spot paint (fusialde and round up) contaminated areas 2 weeks prior to first coring of greens
    - Plug all sprayed/painted areas out over the summer
    - Fusilade and roundup all collars every 5-6 years and put Tifeagle in as a barrier of sorts
    - In the winter we just plug without the spray, only as needed.
    - When we core we make a clean up pass with one pro core 648 and push the plugs towards the collar and use the other machine for the actual coring of the green proper

    Nothing too earth shattering but it seems to work decent.

    Darren



  19. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    7/4/2013 4:07 AM
    Hey Darren. I dont think the problem is as pronounced in TifEagle as it is in Champion, at least from what I've seen. There will always be issues with encroachement, I think, but the contamination in the Champion is an order of magnitude above what I've seen in any other grass and it's not 419, it's something else and it is certainly not confined to the edges.

    Regards,

    Steve



  20. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/4/2013 10:07 AM
    I have a question, when you all say edge greens regularly, how do you all do that? With a regular edger, weedeater turned sideways or some other way?

    Thanks!

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  21. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    7/4/2013 11:07 AM
    We use a stick edger



  22. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    7/5/2013 9:07 AM
    [url][/url]
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: I have a question, when you all say edge greens regularly, how do you all do that? With a regular edger, weedeater turned sideways or some other way?

    Thanks!

    Mel



    http://www.paraide.com/ParAideProducts/GreenArea/GreenTools/tabid/186/p/accuform-green-edger/Default.aspx


    So quick you could do it weekly. Very minimal disturbance.



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