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Gun rights question in History

24 posts
  1. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/12/2014 3:01 PM
    I was watching on History Channel today about cowboys and cattle issues and the like in the late 1860's. Interesting how the Texas Longhorns that were driven north to KC and creating a disease on the MO and KS cattle, all because of a virus carried by a tick.

    Well anyway back to my real question, because of the ban of Texas cattle from MO and most of KS, they couldn't be driven into Kansas City to the stock yards, so this guy named McCoy helped build up Abilene Kansas into a western point for cattle loading on rail cars that had been brought up the Chisim Trail. Interesting, yet I know I haven't got to my point and question yet.

    When the cowboys would arrive into Abilene, in order to assure safety, the cowboys had to turn in their guns while in town, my question is, where were those 2nd amendment people and the NRA? How did they determine who could keep their gun and who couldn't? Was it registered legal citizens of Abilene only? Did they even get to keep their guns?

    Just was wonder what the NRA and those 2nd amendment defenders would say about that? Also when certain laws are suggested now, just a registering of guns, or even certain accessories, why is that so against the right to bear arms? These laws don't say anything about taking guns away, and where does that fit into a well "regulated" militia part of the 2nd amendment?

    I know I'm tired too of the craziness on both sides and extremes of this issue, but the show made me think about it.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  2. Trevor Monreal
    Trevor Monreal avatar
    5 posts
    1/13/2014 6:01 AM
    Just because a law is enacted doesn't mean it is constitutional.
    The NRA was founded in the 1870's.
    It had more to do with promoting shooting sports than protecting gun rights.
    Like you said, both sides (with the help of well paid attorneys) will jump on any legislation to question it's constitutionality.
    Look at marriage...I don't believe anybody is protected, under the constitution, to get or be married.
    But that doesn't mean some groups wont fight that it is their Constitutional Right to get married.
    My thoughts...as a society we should be less concerned with WHO gets married and spend more efforts keeping those couples that are married...MARRIED.



  3. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/13/2014 8:01 AM
    Come to modern day Chicago and ask all the gang members to check their guns before entering the city. Let us know how that works out for ya.



  4. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/13/2014 10:01 AM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Come to modern day Chicago and ask all the gang members to check their guns before entering the city. Let us know how that works out for ya.


    Maybe more police on the streets would be similar to the one sheriff in town back in those days, if the police would do that, do you think the NRA would stop them? (I suppose it depends on if they got their gun legally or not. If they did not I would like to know how they did get them, I suppose some stolen, but what about straw buyers, auctions, and gun shows that don't do background checks?) But of course in the past, late 90's the NRA was all about registering weapons. What has changed?

    I have heard that back in the 60's when Gov. Reagan (yea the same one that became president) was worried about violence in LA during that time and wanted to have a ban on hand guns. Sounds somewhat similar to what you are proposing.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  5. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/13/2014 10:01 AM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Come to modern day Chicago and ask all the gang members to check their guns before entering the city. Let us know how that works out for ya.


    Maybe more police on the streets would be similar to the one sheriff in town back in those days, if the police would do that, do you think the NRA would stop them? (I suppose it depends on if they got their gun legally or not. If they did not I would like to know how they did get them, I suppose some stolen, but what about straw buyers, auctions, and gun shows that don't do background checks?) But of course in the past, late 90's the NRA was all about registering weapons. What has changed?

    I have heard that back in the 60's when Gov. Reagan (yea the same one that became president) was worried about violence in LA during that time and wanted to have a ban on hand guns. Sounds somewhat similar to what you are proposing.

    Mel


    This is whole discussion is moot isn't it with the Supreme Court decisions? NRA or no NRA, the constitution rule still remains the same.



  6. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/13/2014 11:01 AM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Come to modern day Chicago and ask all the gang members to check their guns before entering the city. Let us know how that works out for ya.


    Maybe more police on the streets would be similar to the one sheriff in town back in those days, if the police would do that, do you think the NRA would stop them? (I suppose it depends on if they got their gun legally or not. If they did not I would like to know how they did get them, I suppose some stolen, but what about straw buyers, auctions, and gun shows that don't do background checks?) But of course in the past, late 90's the NRA was all about registering weapons. What has changed?

    I have heard that back in the 60's when Gov. Reagan (yea the same one that became president) was worried about violence in LA during that time and wanted to have a ban on hand guns. Sounds somewhat similar to what you are proposing.

    Mel


    This is whole discussion is moot isn't it with the Supreme Court decisions? NRA or no NRA, the constitution rule still remains the same.


    If it's moot than why do states keep introducing laws to prevent federal law from being enforced? MO introduced one last year that the governor vetoed, and some R's decided not to fight it because they knew the new law would be unconstitutional.

    I guess I brought it up because since the current president has been if office, groups (including the NRA) have put a fear into people that their guns will be taken away and with some of the comments from people, yet history shows that guns were taken away from people in certain circumstances and yet it does not get recognized, I believe it invalidate their arguments. I thought the historical fact of the issues was interesting and discussable.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  7. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/13/2014 1:01 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Come to modern day Chicago and ask all the gang members to check their guns before entering the city. Let us know how that works out for ya.


    Maybe more police on the streets would be similar to the one sheriff in town back in those days, if the police would do that, do you think the NRA would stop them? (I suppose it depends on if they got their gun legally or not. If they did not I would like to know how they did get them, I suppose some stolen, but what about straw buyers, auctions, and gun shows that don't do background checks?) But of course in the past, late 90's the NRA was all about registering weapons. What has changed?

    I have heard that back in the 60's when Gov. Reagan (yea the same one that became president) was worried about violence in LA during that time and wanted to have a ban on hand guns. Sounds somewhat similar to what you are proposing.

    Mel


    This is whole discussion is moot isn't it with the Supreme Court decisions? NRA or no NRA, the constitution rule still remains the same.


    If it's moot than why do states keep introducing laws to prevent federal law from being enforced? MO introduced one last year that the governor vetoed, and some R's decided not to fight it because they knew the new law would be unconstitutional.

    I guess I brought it up because since the current president has been if office, groups (including the NRA) have put a fear into people that their guns will be taken away and with some of the comments from people, yet history shows that guns were taken away from people in certain circumstances and yet it does not get recognized, I believe it invalidate their arguments. I thought the historical fact of the issues was interesting and discussable.

    Mel


    I think its difficult to compare the wild west days to today. Back then the idea of checking your gun was probably seen as a temporary disarming. You walk in, check your gun, walk out, pick up your gun. Like the coat check at the restaurant. Additionally, the NRA either did not exist or if they did, certainly wasn't as organized as it is today and do we think the people of that day had the need to take the issue before the supreme court. Most likely not.

    Fast forward to today. Its a safe statement to say that if Barack Obama and his fellow democrats had their way, all guns would be illegal and confiscated, immediately. This makes legit gun owners nervous (gang members and illegal gun owners couldn't care less). Any attempt by the democrats to restrict guns in any way is seen as an attempt to take away their constitutional right. Remember, Obama comes from Chicago. Chicago has tried to eliminate all guns. Period. They have made gun ownership, possession, and distribution illegal. Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the country and they continue to enact more laws in an attempt to stop guns from entering their city. However, Chicago still has the worst gun violence of any other large city. So obviously their gun laws don't work. Again, period. There is no disputing their gun laws don't work. The proof is as obvious as the sun in the sky. Yet the people running that city and state dig in their heels and keep creating ridiculous laws that only punish the law abiding gun owners. On top of enacting crazy laws, they do it in the face of supreme court rulings. The city officials enact laws worded in such a way to skirt the supreme court rulings. These new laws are then enforced by the city until a group, like the NRA, bring the new law to light and get the case before the supreme court to overturn the city's obvious attempt to bypass the constitution.

    In the end, it's the democrats that is generally the group that try to outlaw guns. Hence the push back against anything the democrats bring to the gun control debate.



  8. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/14/2014 7:01 AM
    Not all Democrats want to take your guns away
    http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/about- ... -to-shoot/

    The problem for progressives is that gun control seems to go hand in hand with progressive politics, if you vote Democratic based on other issues that are important to you, you wind up voting for gun control that you may or may not want.
    Conversely, if you are a conservative who favors gun rights, but you are also in favor of the rights of gay couples, your gun vote may have just become a vote against gay rights.

    Those of us that are not afiliated with a political party tend to feel left out.

    Regards,

    Steve



  9. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    1/14/2014 9:01 AM
    Based on what happened in Lauderdale yesterday, there at least should be gun check in the movie theatre



  10. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/14/2014 10:01 AM
    Larry Allan said: Based on what happened in Lauderdale yesterday, there at least should be gun check in the movie theatre


    He asked him twice before he plugged him.



  11. Keith Lamb
    Keith Lamb avatar
    3 posts
    1/14/2014 10:01 AM
    Larry Allan said: Based on what happened in Lauderdale yesterday, there at least should be gun check in the movie theatre


    It was Wesley Chapel, just northeast of Tampa. Retired Tampa police officer who hates texting during the previews apparently.

    http://tbo.com/pasco-county/deputies-reports-of-two-people-shot-at-wesley-chapel-theater-20140113/



  12. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/14/2014 3:01 PM
    Clay,

    You make some good points and some points that I don't know if I would completely agree with, mainly about what legislation the progressives want. But I won't go into that here, it doesn't really matter so much what my opinions are on the subject and I'm willing to see compromise and use facts to justify laws. When you talk about Chicago, I would beg to guess NYC has similar laws, why the difference? Probably has to do with law enforcement more than the laws themselves.

    You talk about different times, today from the late 1800's, well the left try's to use that argument when talking about what weapons were available when the constitution was written compared today, yet the right will not allow that, so should I allow it in our discussion?

    Maybe if we had gun checks like back in the 1870's now, that guy would not have been shot in the movie theater.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  13. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    1/14/2014 3:01 PM
    Keith Lamb said:
    Larry Allan said: Based on what happened in Lauderdale yesterday, there at least should be gun check in the movie theatre


    It was Wesley Chapel, just northeast of Tampa. Retired Tampa police officer who hates texting during the previews apparently.

    http://tbo.com/pasco-county/deputies-reports-of-two-people-shot-at-wesley-chapel-theater-20140113/

    Sorry Steve, I didn't realize he had asked twice and sorry Kieth, to us northerners Florida is just big city that is warm. We don't know all the suburbs



  14. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/14/2014 3:01 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: Clay,

    You make some good points and some points that I don't know if I would completely agree with, mainly about what legislation the progressives want. But I won't go into that here, it doesn't really matter so much what my opinions are on the subject and I'm willing to see compromise and use facts to justify laws. When you talk about Chicago, I would beg to guess NYC has similar laws, why the difference? Probably has to do with law enforcement more than the laws themselves.

    You talk about different times, today from the late 1800's, well the left try's to use that argument when talking about what weapons were available when the constitution was written compared today, yet the right will not allow that, so should I allow it in our discussion?

    Maybe if we had gun checks like back in the 1870's now, that guy would not have been shot in the movie theater.

    Mel


    Mel,

    I can't explain the discrepancies between NY and Chicago. Not my area of expertise. They both have the strictest laws in the land. But it doesn't matter, does it? The problem are the gang members and those who have guns via illegal means. Both cities can enact a million laws but the gang members and the other ne'er do wells will not follow the laws.

    Yeah, the gun check may have saved the guy in the theater but that does nothing to stem the gang gun violence. Again, ya think the gang member is going to check his gun at the door? Nah. The problem is everyone is focusing on the exception instead of the rule. The majority of gun violence is by hand guns used by gang members and other punks. However, the inner city gun violence has become so common place that no one notices anymore. So everyone focuses their attention on the few and far between weird theater shootings then jumps up and down shouting from the mountain tops that SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!



  15. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
  16. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    1/15/2014 2:01 PM
    The Obama administration is going about this thing in a more quiet manner. You remember back a few months the dept. of homeland security bought up huge quantities of bullets. While that was going on the do ggoders were working on banning lead in bullets. Great thinking, create an amo shortage and then make it so the lead bullets are illegal without a quick replacement in the pipeline. Instant gun control. Can't shoot anything or anybody if you don't have bullets! If you don't think they were linked, you are simply missing how this administration will find some way to accomplish their agenda. I guess killing people and enemies with lead is just too poluting. We must find a cleaner way for the environment when we kill people!



  17. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    1/16/2014 2:01 AM
    I think when it comes to killing people the military is still using depleted uranium tipped bullets, so it is not a matter of curbing pollution in that respect. I know that lead shot has been a concern for quite some time at skeet and trap shooting ranges.



  18. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/16/2014 8:01 AM
    Sandy,

    I have attached an article that clarifies the lead in ammo issue. It was a big deal, especially in our state with the many 2nd amendment people, along with some of the jobs they provided in our state. There are also many more articles I'm sure out there stating the same. While blaming this administration for using this as a back door type deal, with the EPA involved, it has been vetted that the EPA regulations that actually caused this plant to close, (as the owners didn't want to invest the money to make it safer), came about under President Bush. (I guess we can blame something on Bush). Even some gun rights groups or publications have come out to say this is not an issue.

    The hate machine has used this to stir up the anger, and probably fill their coffers for their own agendas.


    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... /?page=all

    Here is a link by Forbes that disputes the ammo purchases by Homeland Security.

    posting.php?mode=reply&f=29&t=3929#preview

    We need to start thinking for ourselves people! Me included.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  19. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    1/16/2014 2:01 PM
    Mel, I prefer to be a cynic on this. I have a hard time trusting very many sources anymore. I will just watch how this plays out. I think government has its tentacles into too many things in too many ways. I am sticking with my gut feeling at this point.



  20. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/16/2014 2:01 PM
    Sandy,

    Being cynical is ok, but some of what's out there is just crazy talk. Things like the president is Muslim, has a socialist agenda, is arming homeland security, is going down the same path as Hitler, no I don't buy that one bit. And to think government is just now getting tentacles out? I don't think so, and probably better them then big business, like during the industry revolution or all throughout our history, who is it that benefits from government policy, when there is policy, not the common person who has little voice and no influence. And both sides of the aisle are guilty.

    I can see the beginnings of some in the tea party and why it started, but I don't honestly think a grass roots effort could have got that big without someone feeding it money, and at that point those with the money twisted it to fit their agenda. Who will suffer from that?

    While I don't trust everything the democrats do, they are pretty good at telling me about the injustices to the middle class, will what they propose help me? I don't always know, but I know when the republicans have tried the trickle down method in the 1980's and 2000's it didn't seem to help. Maybe it is all just cyclical, but the evidence seems to suggest not. Just my opinion.

    My real problem is when people or parties at one time supported something and now do not, like I see republicans do all the time now, irks me, and I do see it on the democratic side as well.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  21. Ronald Kirkman
    Ronald Kirkman avatar
    42 posts
    1/16/2014 6:01 PM
    Hi Mel;

    I wish I knew what middle-class was or is. I will say, I am glad I did not vote for this President. Maybe someone out there can post on here just what middle-class is.

    Capt. Kirk
    Retired Alien
    Needham Golf Club
    Needham, MA



  22. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    1/17/2014 7:01 PM
    Harvey Weistein of Harvey Weinstein fame thinks we don't need guns.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/17/opinion/c ... index.html



  23. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/18/2014 5:01 AM
    Peter Bowman, CGCS said: Harvey Weistein of Harvey Weinstein fame thinks we don't need guns.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/17/opinion/c ... index.html


    I really liked "Kill Bill" and "Pulp Fiction" is on my all time favorite list. I'm unclear on why people in Hollywood would think that anybody actually cares about their opinions. If Newtown didn't move the needle, what makes this guy think he can?

    Regards,

    Steve



  24. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/18/2014 8:01 AM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:
    Peter Bowman, CGCS said: Harvey Weistein of Harvey Weinstein fame thinks we don't need guns.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/17/opinion/c ... index.html


    I really liked "Kill Bill" and "Pulp Fiction" is on my all time favorite list. I'm unclear on why people in Hollywood would think that anybody actually cares about their opinions. If Newtown didn't move the needle, what makes this guy think he can?

    Regards,

    Steve


    Pulp Fiction, very well might be my all time favorite. The best sequenced film, ever. And the story line, what's not to like? At any rate, hollywood manages to make themselves look the fool more than they influence anything life changing.



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