More cutting blades, more thatch?? Cancel The title field is required!

1. Michael Rogers

   

   2 posts
   
   6/6/2013 10:06 AM

   My foreman and another highly regarded staff say that cutting with the Toro 2100 Flex produces thatch after a few weeks on our greens rather than cutting with a new Toro triplex and a JD triplex. They say the same holds true in the fairways with the new Toro 5610 as compared to the older Jacobsen.
   
   
   They say that the angle of attack is less with more blades and it results in a quicker build-up of thatch.
   
   The Toro ( Spanish distributor ) mechanic class for supers said the opposite, more blades and less thatch.
   
   Very interested to hear your opinion.
   
   Thanks
   
   Michael Rogers
   Director of Golf Operations
   Marbella Golf & CC
   España

   
   
   
   
2. Henry Heinz

   

   0 posts
   
   6/6/2013 11:06 AM

   The number of blades has nothing to do with the attitude or attack angle. The type of bedknife, extended or regular, high profile, low profile, and the setting or placement of the rear rollers on Toro's and the setting of the front rollers on the Deere will determine the bedknife aggressiveness based on your mowing height. I doubt that mowing with a flex 2100 is going to produce noticeable thatch that fast from just mowing in two weeks. However you can set your cutting units up to give you a much more aggressive cut. I run the 220e and run very low bedknife attitude and get a very clean and smooth cut. We also topdress lightly weekly, and do a lot of verti-cutting to control grain and thatch build-up. The only cutting units out there that you can not adjust attitude through moving the roller is a Jac. You can do that through the size of rollers and the type of bedknife you use.
   
   Regards,

   
   
   
   
3. James Schmid

   

   1 posts
   
   6/6/2013 1:06 PM

   you may consider the weight of the cutting units. Perhaps with lighter cutting units, you are not achieving the same actual height of cut that you were previously. You may need to lower the bench setting to achieve the same actual HOC that you were before. The flex 2100 can be adjusted to have quite an aggressive bedknife attitude, In fact, I think that is what the default configuration is. That configuration can be achieved regardless of which reel you choose to use.

   
   
   
   
4. Larry Allan

   

   0 posts
   
   6/6/2013 2:06 PM

   Back in the old days at Penn State, they had turf plots and one was cut with a Toro Triplex and one with the old upright Jake. Because the jake had down pressure and the Toro floated, there was, after several years a noticeable difference in thatch buildup even with all other programs the same. This was in the 80's so I doubt it still applies but interesting none the less

   
   
   
   
5. Kenneth Meals

   

   2 posts
   
   6/6/2013 2:06 PM

   I agree with Skip 100%, the amount of blades has nothing to do with bedknife attitude. You can make a Toro bedknife attitude to match a Jacs bedknife attitude. The cutting edge of the bedknife can be more forward to the centerline of the reel using the extended bedknives. So there is a lot of flexibility with the Toro's.

   
   
   
   
6. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   6/6/2013 2:06 PM

   Who cares? Verticut the hell out of it and move forward.
   
   Steve

   
   
   
   
7. Wahlin Scott B

   
   6/6/2013 3:06 PM

   Larry Allan said: Back in the old days at Penn State, they had turf plots and one was cut with a Toro Triplex and one with the old upright Jake. Because the jake had down pressure and the Toro floated, there was, after several years a noticeable difference in thatch buildup even with all other programs the same. This was in the 80's so I doubt it still applies but interesting none the less

   
   
   I am not sure about the newer mowers, but this still applied to riding mowers manufactured in 2000. Jacs needed to be set 1-2 thousands higher to avoid scalping for a demo if Toros were the primary mower used at the time.

   
   
   
   
8. Michael Rogers

   

   2 posts
   
   6/9/2013 2:06 AM

   Thanks for input. The greens are rolling between 11 and 12 with single cut at 3 mm, no rolling and are true as can be.
   
   My guys think that more blades more puffy. The Toro 2100 Flex marked about a 2 square meter area that tends to hold more water on one green.
   
   All machines are floating, the JD, Jakes and new Toros. The Toro instructor said set reel speed coordinated with operating speed so that the machine travels the distance between the blades in the same amount of time between strikes of the blades.
   
   That is how the charts are set up on the machines. I am very curious to see if there is any practical or theoretical evidence to back up their belief. These operators are excellent and course is getting rave reviews as I let them get on with it and step in when needed for agronomical or logistical issues.
   
   Maybe it is a Spanish wive´s tale. More blades, more puff at correct ground speed SI O NO
   
   Saludos
   
   Michael Rogers
   Director of Golf Operations
   Marbella Golf & CC

   
   
   
   
9. Nicolas Davies

   

   0 posts
   
   6/10/2013 7:06 AM

   Michael yes intersting .
   
   Wiele ( different makes of Wiele palastic / alloy) or flat rollers ? triplex cutting versus hand , cutting unit weight , roller diameter , bed knife angle ,and the old chestnut Bench HOC and actual HOC on green all of these have an incremental influence on clip rate .
   
   Floating heads follow contours better , but they by definition float over the grass, fixed hand mower al la GM 1000 follow more accurately contours, but cut lower than same bench set floating head .
   
   In the Uk we had to add extra weight on top of the flex 2100 to help match up the cutting height with GM 1000 .
   
   Some love floating I don't because they float and do tend to leave a spongier feeling green .
   
   Interesting discussion

   
   
   
   
10. Michael Rogers

    

    2 posts
    
    6/10/2013 9:06 AM

    Thanks Nic, are you still in Saudi? Our greens are very undulating so Flex is necessary. We have a rigid Jake for greens like new. I think it on ice at the moment I played yesterday with friends from a neighboring club and they said the greens were fast like linoleum.
    
    I will dig out my Toro notes and USB stick and review what they say, in Spanish of course.
    
    What I really want to know if number of blades enters thatch equation like overwatering, over fertilizing, insufficient topdressing, lack of aeration, etc. What do Jake say with their new 15 blade unit for example.
    
    Best cut but needs more topdressing, verticutting OR NO.
    
    Saludos Michael