Religious warfare Cancel The title field is required!

1. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   9/17/2012 6:09 PM

   So....I see that groups of atheists are killing each other over who doesn't believe in god the most
   
   ........oh........
   .......wait....
   .........sorry, that never happens, does it?
   
   
   
   Never mind.

   
   
   
   
2. Clay Putnam

   

   33 posts
   
   9/17/2012 9:09 PM

   Weeeeeell, yunz Atheists have a fair share of lunatic war mongers too. Don't get me wrong, religion and war is weird but religion doesn't have the nutbag market cornered.

   
   
   
   
3. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   9/18/2012 6:09 AM

   Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Weeeeeell, yunz Atheists have a fair share of lunatic war mongers too. Don't get me wrong, religion and war is weird but religion doesn't have the nutbag market cornered.

   
   
   
   This is what is known as a "false equivalency".
   
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

   
   
   
   
4. Clay Putnam

   

   33 posts
   
   9/18/2012 8:09 AM

   Here's a couple links I found on the subject. I take at least one with a grain of salt because it is a conservative publication. But it's all I have at the moment. Are they wrong? I don't have a dog in this fight (I'm not a religious person, although I do believe there is more to life than just electrical impulses and I don't subscribe to Atheism either) so I'm a passive participant so to speak. Just curious.
   
   http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_Mass_Murder
   
   http://listverse.com/2010/06/05/10-people-who-give-atheism-a-bad-name/

   
   
   
   
5. Sean Hoolehan

   

   0 posts
   
   9/18/2012 10:09 AM

   Mao Zedong (over 40 million Chinese starved in "Great leap forward" late 1950s – early 60s)
   Josif Stalin (over 20-30 million Russians murdered, 1930s-1953),
   Pol Pot (killed up to 50% of Kampuchea's population)
   
   That's just a start.
   
   Man's inhumanity to Man will always be difficult to understand. When people do not feel connected to each other, it seems that a feeling of superiority or blame develops. (Example) "I'm blessed by god and they are not so they deserve the poor treatment, or the reason I am not better off is because they held me back." Briefly after the attacks on 9/11/2001 many Americans felt more connected/united together and at the same time blame to Muslims.
   
   I know nothing about Islam, I have always felt that I should spend more time getting to know my own faith rather than worrying about others. It is hard for me as a American living in a tolerant society to understand the intolerance we see in Islamic countries, but there is very little difference between the social intolerance we see in communist (atheist) countries like say China, and the religious intolerance we see in Islamic countries.
   
   Sean

   
   
   
   
6. McCallum David K

   
   9/18/2012 11:09 AM

   I kind of agree with Clay and define myself as religious passive if that is the term he used but also agree with the point Sean made about the viewpoints of the anti religious goverments of the world compared to the religious zealots of Islam. Both are extremes!
   
   In my opinion and thats all it is, my opinion I do not think you can reason with the Islamic extremists. Though many may be moderate beleivers of Islam they are not the ones in charge at the moment and probably never will be, at least in my lifetime. It is amazing that many on the left believe if you appease them they will be happy to leave us alone and we can all go about our merry business. This is far from the truth. They hate the infidels and want to see us all dead........they Hollywood elites, the liberal bureaucrats are all seen by the Islamic extremist as no different than Bush or Cheney or myself.......they want us all dead......no distinction between good and bad in their eyes. And Obama went to Eygpt a few years ago and tried to do just that........"I do not look like any of our other presidents"........yeah that speech hit home and went over well.

   
   
   
   
7. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   9/18/2012 2:09 PM

   Dave, I don't think you can reason with anyone who has strongly held religious beliefs. The very act of holding those beliefs negates the ability to discuss them rationally.
   
   Anyway, it's not surprising to me that I got the reaction I did, even though I think that most of the respondents have either misread or misunderstood the motive behind what was my admittedly catty little comment.
   
   There is no doubt that religious believers suffered under communist or other dictatorial regimes. The point of those regimes was not however, religious. Those regimes were either collectivist, hyper nationalists or just plain crazy and they saw religion as competition to be wiped out. They were not interested in forcing another religion on people the way modern aggressive religious fanatics seem to be, they were interested in forcing their political system on people and used religion as an excuse. The modern religious warrior is interested in battle for the sake of his own mythology.
   
   Finally, the joke was about atheists battling other atheists over who didn't believe in god the most. I suspect that conclusions were jumped to....

   
   
   
   
8. Steven Kurta

   

   2 posts
   
   9/18/2012 4:09 PM

   [quote">they were interested in forcing their political system on people and used religion as an excuse.
   
   but while we're here. Can we agree that whatever the system, be it christian, muslim, catholic, atheist, communist, that the ultimate goal, whether it's veiled or not, is simply, "control".
   Not mind control or physical control right? Not, "you think what I think, or else" control -- I mean the kind of control that keeps people where the leaders/elders/establishment/etc. wants them to be. Keeps them in a position of quasi-fear of some type of comeuppance. Whether that be in the form of eternal damnation, failure to ascend, no virgins for you, busted karma, or the over-running of the homeland by capitalists pigs...
   
   The way I see it, it's about control. Even more than money, yet money can be a form of control. As a leader or as leadership, it's about how you handle the masses that you're ultimately responsible for. Thinking about how populations over and through the history of the world were handled and controlled is mind boggling. I mean before science and before wide acceptance of logical discourse and the age of reason. I can't imagine how afraid of things people must have been, and sadly, how easy they'd have been to control and cow into things.
   
   Offline for a couple of days...later taters.

   
   
   
   
9. Wahlin Scott B

   
   9/18/2012 6:09 PM

   The current right-wing does not care about science. Just ask Sarah about CO2.

   
   
   
   
10. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    9/18/2012 6:09 PM

    Steven Kurta said: [quote">they were interested in forcing their political system on people and used religion as an excuse.

    
    
    but while we're here. Can we agree that whatever the system, be it christian, muslim, catholic, atheist, communist, that the ultimate goal, whether it's veiled or not, is simply, "control".
    Not mind control or physical control right? Not, "you think what I think, or else" control -- I mean the kind of control that keeps people where the leaders/elders/establishment/etc. wants them to be. Keeps them in a position of quasi-fear of some type of comeuppance. Whether that be in the form of eternal damnation, failure to ascend, no virgins for you, busted karma, or the over-running of the homeland by capitalists pigs...
    
    The way I see it, it's about control. Even more than money, yet money can be a form of control. As a leader or as leadership, it's about how you handle the masses that you're ultimately responsible for. Thinking about how populations over and through the history of the world were handled and controlled is mind boggling. I mean before science and before wide acceptance of logical discourse and the age of reason. I can't imagine how afraid of things people must have been, and sadly, how easy they'd have been to control and cow into things.
    
    Offline for a couple of days...later taters.
    
    That's an interesting theory. I would agree a portion can be blamed on control. I recently finished an interesting book titled Why Nations Fail. In every instance of a failed nation and current oppressive nations, the motive was/is both control and money. The control satisfies the endorphins of the dictator and the money, well you get the good stuff with the money.
    
    As for a control motive as it relates to religion, it seems to make sense at a certain level. I think we can take it a step further though. What are the motives for the control? Is it to make you a better educated person? Is it to FORCE a belief? Is it just for the sake of being the school yard bully? And in some cases the money? I'm sure they all fit somewhere.

    
    
    
    
11. Steven Kurta

    

    2 posts
    
    9/19/2012 6:09 AM

    Well, control is sought because your personal security and identity are riding on it.
    Your lineage, your investments, your heritage and traditions, your family, your belief systems, etc. All of this stuff is maintainable as long as you have control of managing it and expressing it. True for the individual as much as it's true for the state (religious or political state)

    
    
    
    
12. Peter Bowman

    

    11 posts
    
    9/19/2012 6:09 AM

    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS"]So....I see that groups of atheists are killing each other over who doesn't believe in god the most........quote]
    
    So as to imply that religious groups are killing each other over who does believe in god the most?
    
    This what's known as a "false premise":
    
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise

    
    
    
    
13. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    9/19/2012 8:09 AM

    Anyone catch the segment Monday night on Stewart where they talked about Islam being about 1400 years old, like a teenager, then they asked what the Christians where doing in the 1400's. Thought it was an interesting comparison.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
14. Sandy Clark

    

    0 posts
    
    9/19/2012 9:09 AM

    Man has used religion to his advantage since it first began, rather it was ancient Egypt or Mesopotamia. Christianity has had more than its share of arguments based on what God was claimed to have said. As I got older, I had no trouble with a belief in God but found most all religion to be contaminated by man mostly for the purpose of control. My youngest brother is more of a fundamentalist type of Christian and he honestly believes the earth is only 10,000 years old. He comes up with several justifications for his belief and why science is completely wrong. I was never taught in Catholic School that the Pope only became infallible when the church lost control of the Papal States. I do not ridicule anyone having spiritual beliefs. I do have a serious problem with anyone thinking they have the responsibility to convert you or kill you if you won't agree. I have to mix politics and religion for a minute and ask why hasn't the United Nations ever come out and completely condemn and religion that denigrates their women and kills in the name of a prophet or a god. In the year 2012, if your religion teaches that you should kill those that don't believe your way of worship, I have to question if you really worship a god. God would not waste time on which religion is best. If your prophet tells you to kill, he is not a prophet!

    
    
    
    
15. James Schmid

    

    1 posts
    
    9/19/2012 11:09 AM

    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: Man has used religion to his advantage since it first began, rather it was ancient Egypt or Mesopotamia. Christianity has had more than its share of arguments based on what God was claimed to have said. As I got older, I had no trouble with a belief in God but found most all religion to be contaminated by man mostly for the purpose of control. My youngest brother is more of a fundamentalist type of Christian and he honestly believes the earth is only 10,000 years old. He comes up with several justifications for his belief and why science is completely wrong. I was never taught in Catholic School that the Pope only became infallible when the church lost control of the Papal States. I do not ridicule anyone having spiritual beliefs. I do have a serious problem with anyone thinking they have the responsibility to convert you or kill you if you won't agree. I have to mix politics and religion for a minute and ask why hasn't the United Nations ever come out and completely condemn and religion that denigrates their women and kills in the name of a prophet or a god. In the year 2012, if your religion teaches that you should kill those that don't believe your way of worship, I have to question if you really worship a god. God would not waste time on which religion is best. If your prophet tells you to kill, he is not a prophet!

    
    
    We don't really have any idea what "GOD" would or wouldn't do. You are trying to reason your way to a conclusion in the absence of information. Perhaps "GOD" would ask us to kill for him. Didn't he ask Abraham to kill his son or something? Didn't he send his son Jesus to earth to die?
    
    You cant put reasoning and religion together, one is reasoning and one is belief absent of reason. If you want to be religious thats fine, but trying to extend your beliefs and use them as reasoning in a logical argument is simply foolish. Maybe their "GOD" or "PROPHET" or whatever does tell them to kill, and they subscribe to it as an article of faith without questioning the reasonability of it in the same way that you subscribe to the tenets of your religion absent of justification with logical thought.

    
    
    
    
16. Larry Allan

    

    0 posts
    
    9/19/2012 2:09 PM

    It comes down to one thing. Education
    Those Lads throwing rocks and burning flags aren't exactly brimming with it. If they attend school at all, it is more indoctrination than education.

    
    
    
    
17. Sean Hoolehan

    

    0 posts
    
    9/19/2012 2:09 PM

    Larry Allan said: It comes down to one thing. Education
    Those Lads throwing rocks and burning flags aren't exactly brimming with it. If they attend school at all, it is more indoctrination than education.

    
    
    
    Sorry Larry but there are probably just as many examples of intellectualism gone bad as religion, or ideology. Just Google "Eugenics" and you can learn about a ghastly recent era when people of great education (science) decided they knew better then us dumb folks. Education does not make someone smart, but it often can embolden people to believe they are.
    
    Kurta's pictures last week of Libyans supporting Americans is a great example, Education is relative to the perspective of who presents it. Really all a smart person needs is how to read, and free access to material. Its one of the reasons home schooling is becoming more popular in America, it allows parents to filter the perspective.
    
    Sean

    
    
    
    
18. Stephen Okula

    

    3 posts
    
    9/19/2012 11:09 PM

    Regarding educated vs. ignorant, or smart vs. dumb, the (conservative but funny) writer P. J. O'Rourke said words to the effect of,
    
    "Smart people don't start bar fights, but then dumb people don't build nuclear bombs."

    
    
    
    
19. Steven Kurta

    

    2 posts
    
    9/20/2012 5:09 AM

    Well, apparently I'm too dumb to know whether Hoolehan just threw a passive-aggressive swing at me or if it was an actual put-down. Well disguised!
    
    I thought eugenics was code for white power/nazi nonsense. Or did Hoolehan just Godwin this thread?
    I'm thinking he did.
    
    read.
    read. read.

    
    
    
    
20. Larry Allan

    

    0 posts
    
    9/20/2012 5:09 AM

    Sean Hoolehan, CGCS said:

    Larry Allan said: It comes down to one thing. Education
    Those Lads throwing rocks and burning flags aren't exactly brimming with it. If they attend school at all, it is more indoctrination than education.

    
    
    
    Sorry Larry but there are probably just as many examples of intellectualism gone bad as religion, or ideology. Just Google "Eugenics" and you can learn about a ghastly recent era when people of great education (science) decided they knew better then us dumb folks. Education does not make someone smart, but it often can embolden people to believe they are.
    
    Kurta's pictures last week of Libyans supporting Americans is a great example, Education is relative to the perspective of who presents it. Really all a smart person needs is how to read, and free access to material. Its one of the reasons home schooling is becoming more popular in America, it allows parents to filter the perspective.
    
    Sean

    
    
    My point was and is that if the education you receive is one of complete intolerance to other points of view, and the only way of settling up is violence, then that is all you know and how you will react
    If you are educated to be tollerant of others points of view, then you most likely will be
    Home schooling scares the hell out of me. Just indoctrination by another name
    
    Skurta...had to look up the Godwin reference,... perfect. Hitler will eventually turn up in and long winded argument

    
    
    
    
21. Sean Hoolehan

    

    0 posts
    
    9/20/2012 8:09 AM

    My point was and is that if the education you receive is one of complete intolerance to other points of view, and the only way of settling up is violence, then that is all you know and how you will react
    If you are educated to be tollerant of others points of view, then you most likely will be
    Home schooling scares the hell out of me. Just indoctrination by another name
    
    
    
    Skurta...had to look up the Godwin reference,... perfect. Hitler will eventually turn up in and long winded argument
    
    
    Eugenics was around long before Nazi Germany embraced it. Look it up. Teddy Roosevelt was a believer as was Margret Sanger. Here in Oregon it was so fully embraced that they (state government) actually performed forced sterilizations.
    
    I do not think you are taught tolerance in school. You learn it at home. I think the majority of home schooling parents would/do say the same thing about school systems "Just indoctrination by another name". If your choice is to send your children to school where they learn to hate and to despise would you still be scared to home school. (I use this as hypothetical not inferring that is what is taught at schools here in America) That was why I used Kurta's example (with no intended or unintended malice) it is our perspective that really influences our beliefs. As an American I am used to a free society but not always that tolerant. A very different perspective than someone who grew up in the Middle East.
    
    Learning /education is very important. My point is quite simple. Even the most highly educated people do some pretty dumb stuff often because their perspective on life was influenced by the environment around them. There is a difference between being Smart and being Highly educated. Some of the Smartest people I have met had very limited schooling, and I have met some highly educated nincompoops too.
    
    To start this whole thread Steve inferred (or as he later posted set a trap) that Atheist don't start Wars, like religious people do. I disagree, [u">People[/u"> hijack religion, ideas and ideologies to suit their own purposes all the time, and have throughout history.
    Sean

    
    
    
    
22. Larry Allan

    

    0 posts
    
    9/20/2012 10:09 AM

    Sean, when I think of home schooling I obviously think in terms of how it would work in my own family. I, and I think most others do not have the knowledge or wherewithal to give their kids much of a rounded education past grade 2. All I could really teach him is how to be stupid, sit around drinking beer and scratch his genitalia.
    He came home last night to tell me about covalent molecular bonds and the relationship between velocity and inertia. I nodded my head as if i understood and tried to think what I could teach him. I thought of only 2 things...how many grams in an ounce and that when you are in Amsterdam, going to a cafe is smarter than buying road tar off a guy in a back alley.
    I look at home schooling as just another form of brainwashing. Send them to school, let them learn, experience life and then when they come home, work at instilling morals and common decency. Home schooling simply shelters them from real life and locks them into parental beliefs
    All of those rioters were essentially home schooled with their parents beliefs and look where it took them