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Celebration

21 posts
  1. Curtis Nickerson
    Curtis Nickerson avatar
    0 posts
    6/25/2013 5:06 PM
    Hello folks,
    For those of you that have celebration or know someone that's does, here goes!

    Sadly our mid 9 golf course is heavily contaminated with common Bermuda, it's in our fairways, rough, tees and nearly all our collars. The collars had previously been re-sodded but not sprayed out and the common has come back pretty strong. I don't think it would have mattered if they sprayed prior to re planting because the slope is all common as well. So what I'm considering is spraying and planting the collars to celebration, we bi-weekly edge the greens now to keep out the common out so that's not a major issue.

    What do y'all think?



  2. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    6/25/2013 6:06 PM
    I'm in the minority because Celebration seems to be the flavor of the week, but as far as I'm concerned you would be trading American Common for Australian Common.
    I prefer 419

    Regards,

    Steve



  3. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    6/25/2013 6:06 PM
    I know a number of people who have the same opinion as Steve. Having said that I know they have a bunch of it at High Ridge GC in Boynton Beach. I am sure Steve Kuhn would be happy to talk to you about it.

    I have some kind of weird wide leafed bermuda in my driving range tee. We tried to spray it out and replace it with 419 when we leveled it the last time. The wide leafed bermuda came right back with a vengeance. I am starting to like it though. It takes about 45 minutes for the divots to fill in.



  4. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    6/25/2013 6:06 PM
    I'll show you some when you come up.



  5. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    6/26/2013 12:06 PM
    Curtis-We have Celebration fairways and are in the process of doing tee, collars and apps. Best turf for the money, but also more aggressive than 419 and common, so it's purity will last. If you have common surrounds, the common WILL get into 419 eventually. So many courses are being turned on to Celebration for many positive reasons. I don't know a course that's doing renovation work that's not using it. TPC Sawgrass is sodding all their tees, approaches, collars and fairways as we speak. If the surface is good enough for the pros, its got to be good enough for the amateurs. You couldn't convince me to use 419 as a short cut grass. Most regressing projects in the last 5 years have used Celebration. They have it wall to wall at High Ridge. Palm Beach CC, also.



  6. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    6/26/2013 1:06 PM
    Anthony Nysse said: Curtis-We have Celebration fairways and are in the process of doing tee, collars and apps. Best turf for the money, but also more aggressive than 419 and common, so it's purity will last. If you have common surrounds, the common WILL get into 419 eventually. So many courses are being turned on to Celebration for many positive reasons. I don't know a course that's doing renovation work that's not using it. TPC Sawgrass is sodding all their tees, approaches, collars and fairways as we speak. If the surface is good enough for the pros, its got to be good enough for the amateurs. You couldn't convince me to use 419 as a short cut grass. Most regressing projects in the last 5 years have used Celebration. They have it wall to wall at High Ridge. Palm Beach CC, also.



    Tony,

    What about using TifSport instead of 419? Please let me know your true feelings!!



  7. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    6/26/2013 1:06 PM
    Andy Jorgensen said:
    Anthony Nysse said: Curtis-We have Celebration fairways and are in the process of doing tee, collars and apps. Best turf for the money, but also more aggressive than 419 and common, so it's purity will last. If you have common surrounds, the common WILL get into 419 eventually. So many courses are being turned on to Celebration for many positive reasons. I don't know a course that's doing renovation work that's not using it. TPC Sawgrass is sodding all their tees, approaches, collars and fairways as we speak. If the surface is good enough for the pros, its got to be good enough for the amateurs. You couldn't convince me to use 419 as a short cut grass. Most regressing projects in the last 5 years have used Celebration. They have it wall to wall at High Ridge. Palm Beach CC, also.



    Tony,

    What about using TifSport instead of 419? Please let me know your true feelings!!


    I am not a fan of tifsport. It was planted here in the 2005 renovation and never was really the grass the club had hoped it was going to be. Our soils are quite inconsistent making things even more difficult. When the turf needed to shine (winter months) is when our tifsport was its worst. It did not hold up well to wear, was not aggressive enough in the spring to grow in thin areas and common filled the voids. I would rather have a more aggressive turf on fairways, tees and approaches than have to worry about them growing at all. AJ-I swear you're the exception as your tifsport (sh*tsport) glows like I've never seen.
    On a course where common has been planted at one time or another, unless it's replaced with something as aggressive or more aggressive, the common will win, even with Methyl-Bromide.



  8. Curtis Nickerson
    Curtis Nickerson avatar
    0 posts
    6/26/2013 2:06 PM
    Anthony Nysse said: Curtis-We have Celebration fairways and are in the process of doing tee, collars and apps. Best turf for the money, but also more aggressive than 419 and common, so it's purity will last. If you have common surrounds, the common WILL get into 419 eventually. So many courses are being turned on to Celebration for many positive reasons. I don't know a course that's doing renovation work that's not using it. TPC Sawgrass is sodding all their tees, approaches, collars and fairways as we speak. If the surface is good enough for the pros, its got to be good enough for the amateurs. You couldn't convince me to use 419 as a short cut grass. Most regressing projects in the last 5 years have used Celebration. They have it wall to wall at High Ridge. Palm Beach CC, also.



    Tony,
    Would you mind sharing with me your process for the conversion? Where you are getting your sprigs and sod from your grow in schedule and anything I should be on the lookout for? Hell, can you just come over and handle it!!! Lol :D

    I know a lot of folks are converting to it and I like what I'm hearing, but like Steve said I worry about it turning into the paspalum rage that seems to have a lot of "buyers remorse"



  9. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    6/26/2013 2:06 PM
    When we did our fairways last year, we made 3 applications of Round Up/Fusilade and Raider+. We could have gotten away with 2 apps, but we budgeted for 3. I firmly believe that the Raider+ enhanced all the products and take up.
    We then verticut several times, scaled the turf down to .275" and then aerified. Once completed, we have Quality Grassing spring our fairways at 800 bushels/acre. We watered and watered and watered. After week one, we fertilized with Am Sul at .5"/1000 and also for week 2. By week 3, we were mowing. We made 11 Am Sulfate apps, 1 K-mag app and a complete fert app. We were introducing primo in at 8 weeks.
    We have mowed a chipping area down to .200" to try to match our tifeagle tees and apps. The ball sits up better and to me, is a more upright than 419. It is more dense and upright than common. The color is much better also and it holds up to wear and tear better-no need to seed like some 419 guys have to. I do not think that this is the new craze. Some courses have had it now for 10 years and its just starting to get momentum now.
    Again, if TPC is sodding all their shortgrass surfaces after testing it a year(Practice areas and chipping green areas) with their local tour pros, I do not believe that it's a craze. Remember, they sodded with 419 7 years ago and the common just overtook the 419. If it's good enough for the pros, the members will love it.



  10. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    6/26/2013 2:06 PM
    Hey Curt. Just because TPC is doing it doesn't mean you should. Go look at it and make up your own mind. I have it on some shaded tees and it has performed very well, but I would not want it anywhere near my greens. It is very aggressive and to my eye, even though it is very green, it has an unacceptably wide leaf blade and it just looks like a gnarly form of Common to me.
    Opinions are like nipples....everybody has one.

    Steve



  11. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    6/26/2013 3:06 PM
    Curtis-You're welcome over here at anytime. A lot of courses have made the change over here, many with VERY demanding memberships-Jupiter Hills, The Bears Club, Jonathan's Landing, Dye Preserve, High Ridge, Palm Beach CC, CC of Florida, Admirals Cove, Addison Reserve to name a few. Quite a few course in Naples, too-Naples National and Hole in the Wall among others.



  12. Curtis Nickerson
    Curtis Nickerson avatar
    0 posts
    6/26/2013 3:06 PM
    Thanks Tony,
    I just may take you up on that! It's nice to hear that a lot of the higher-end club have converted ( while it doesn't mean I will do it because they did) it will however make it more palatable to my owners.

    How have your fertilizer and cultural practices changed since converting? Are you fertilizing/watering/verticutting and aerating more, less same?

    I know it's more course than 419 but it can't be as bad as this common I have?

    I would love to not have to consider doing it, but the common is there already, the 419 can't compete and frankly the common provides a less than acceptable surface, especially around the green complexes.



  13. Jack Stephens
    Jack Stephens avatar
    0 posts
    6/26/2013 3:06 PM
    Chris Neff at Timuquana in Jacksonville renovated a couple of years ago with Celebration on tees and fairways along with TifGrand on approaches and surrounds. He might be a good source for some insight. This seems like a good option if aggressiveness is a concern. The Celebration sure tightens up when the HOC is lowered but when I saw it for the first time it looked like Common's prettier cousin.

    As a golfer I don't particularly care about a monostand. I prefer a little quirkiness and imperfection, though I'm sure I'm in the minority in that regard. But as a turf manager, that's another thing altogether!

    Brad Stephens
    Assistant Superintendent
    King and Bear-World Golf Village Resort



  14. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    6/26/2013 3:06 PM
    Anthony Nysse said:
    Andy Jorgensen said:
    Anthony Nysse said: Curtis-We have Celebration fairways and are in the process of doing tee, collars and apps. Best turf for the money, but also more aggressive than 419 and common, so it's purity will last. If you have common surrounds, the common WILL get into 419 eventually. So many courses are being turned on to Celebration for many positive reasons. I don't know a course that's doing renovation work that's not using it. TPC Sawgrass is sodding all their tees, approaches, collars and fairways as we speak. If the surface is good enough for the pros, its got to be good enough for the amateurs. You couldn't convince me to use 419 as a short cut grass. Most regressing projects in the last 5 years have used Celebration. They have it wall to wall at High Ridge. Palm Beach CC, also.



    Tony,

    What about using TifSport instead of 419? Please let me know your true feelings!!


    I am not a fan of tifsport. It was planted here in the 2005 renovation and never was really the grass the club had hoped it was going to be. Our soils are quite inconsistent making things even more difficult. When the turf needed to shine (winter months) is when our tifsport was its worst. It did not hold up well to wear, was not aggressive enough in the spring to grow in thin areas and common filled the voids. I would rather have a more aggressive turf on fairways, tees and approaches than have to worry about them growing at all. AJ-I swear you're the exception as your tifsport (sh*tsport) glows like I've never seen.
    On a course where common has been planted at one time or another, unless it's replaced with something as aggressive or more aggressive, the common will win, even with Methyl-Bromide.


    Tony,

    Although it has worked quite well for us, you are correct about common invading anything and sticking out like a sore thumb. Where our TifSport is pure, it is the superior grass on this property. Where the common has invaded, well.....there is no TifSport left. We are looking at Celebration as well for this reason, as it's not a matter of IF the common comes back, but WHEN. The common will blend in better with the Celebration (common off-type) than with the TifSport or 419.

    Our plots we planted last year amazed me. They grew in very quick. The rear driving range tee was typical no-till with 3 apps of Round-up/ Fusilade, v-cut and aerified, then sprigged. We did another area where we applied four different rates of Primo, v-cut and aerified, then sprigged right on top. That area is about 80% Celebration right now with only about 30 days worth of downtime. Primo rate did not matter as I have another plot in which no Primo, no verticutting, no aerification or cutting in of the sprigs was performed. They were simply laid right on top and it's at about 70% Celebration right now. We were mowing all of this at .500" within two weeks of planting.

    I have found that if you continuously mow the Celebration one direction to stripe it up, it will lay over quite a bit, and then attempts to cross-cut after this will leave lots of scalped turf. You gotta verti-cut as well. More frequently, I've been told.

    But all in all, it's a nice grass. I like my TifSport better, and if there was a way to keep it pure, I wouldn't hesitate one bit to plant it again. But, until that day comes, Celebration it is!



  15. Parker Ferren
    Parker Ferren avatar
    0 posts
    6/26/2013 4:06 PM
    I think it's a bit ludacris to compare common to Celebration. Regardless of the genetic upbringings, common will not perform at 1/4" or lower as Celebration does. Celebration can be easily maintained down to .200".

    Celebration will also out-compete common. 419 cannot. Which is why 419 is not and will not be a superior cultivar. And for the record.....It's not just TPC Sawgrass...it's most courses in the southeast...especially Florida. If you're doing a renovation....most likely...you're using Celebration (or Tifgrand). Fact. 2k an acre no till is pretty damn cheap...

    As Mr. Huffstutler stated, it is aggressive around greens. BUT, all it takes is one body and 3-4 hours and you can edge your greens on a weekly basis. Surely that isn't enough of a tough pill to swallow for purity and the prevention of contamination?! Extremely simple as long as you stay on top of it....Also, if you're dealing with common encroaching into your greens, I'm sure you've done all you can to edge and keep it out to begin with, so this wont be anything new to you.

    As far as Mr. Jorgensen is concerned, it's a known fact that he is the best (and only successful) grower of Tifsport in the country. Kudos to him... ;-)...but that cultivar stinks....

    As far as leaf blade texture is concerned... it is a bit more coarse than 419...BUT...with verticutting and primo the leaf blade can be manipulated into any width and height you desire. A set of verticutting reels on a fairway mower goes a long way. It can be overaggressive and thatchy BUT can be easily controlled with a set of verticutting reels and some sand.



  16. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/26/2013 4:06 PM
    Great topic and thread and not to be a fly in the ointment, and since I'm more familiar now with cool season and some bermuda and zoysia now in the transition zone, haven't been in Florida since it was 328 on greens and 419 on fairways? But I wonder what all this work you guys have to do with verticutting and other cultural practices, has there been a cost factored into this? Is that why golf isn't cheap anymore?

    I know back in the late 70's and early 80's we didn't have much of a budget and much of a crew, but seemed to do ok, tee sheet was always full from mid-Sept to mid-April and was pretty steady during the summer and we didn't work the grass that hard. Of course that was before all the courses were built/overbuilt and now conditions are more important then back then?

    Maybe this is another topic for another thread also?

    Thanks!

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  17. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    6/26/2013 4:06 PM
    I think that it should be noted the we have not had to verticut anymore than in years past with tifsport/common fairways. Tr biggest change for us it to be more diligent on primo applications-10-12 day, 6oz



  18. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    6/26/2013 5:06 PM
    Parker Ferren said:

    As far as Mr. Jorgensen is concerned, it's a known fact that he is the best (and only successful) grower of Tifsport in the country. Kudos to him.........;)



    Very good, Grasshopper. Your check is in the mail!



  19. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    6/26/2013 6:06 PM
    One of these days Florida is going to rediscover Everglades Bermudagrass. It will go easily from 0.125" with deep verticutting and topdressing to a maximum of 1.25" if you don't mind if the ball is teed up in the canopy. It is extremely aggressive and will maintain a monostand easily. It was the most recommended Bermuda by UF in the early 60's. It makes a very nice fine leaved putting surface in the winter in South Florida and in the summer as well if you can deal with the off color appearance from constant verticutting.



  20. Parker Ferren
    Parker Ferren avatar
    0 posts
    6/26/2013 8:06 PM
    Mel,

    I think that the new ultradwarf cultivars for greens and TifGrand/Celebration for longer HOC playing surfaces, bermudagrass are now competing with the purity, consistency, and uniformity of cool season grasses. 328 and 419 once being the standard, were never comparable to the higher quality cool season cultivars.

    As far as cost and cultural practices are concerned, verticutting and constantly pulling a core are a high priority with the new, highly aggressive warm season cultivars. So, perhaps they cost a bit more to successfully maintain, but they certainly have the ability to perform the same as cool season grasses.

    I agree with you that conditions are now more important than ever...especially with seasonal members traveling south for a solid 6 months of good weather and playing conditions. They expect the same conditions that they find up north during the summer months. BUT, with the majority of the deep south memberships being "seasonal", many clubs are only required to produce top quality conditions for 6 months out of the year...and then are afforded the luxury of 6 months of reduced play and aggressive cultural practices.

    I think these ultradwarf cultivars will continuously compare to bent, and golf conditions in the south will continue to improve as more and more golfers will appreciate the year round consistency in high quality putting green surfaces.



  21. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/26/2013 8:06 PM
    Thanks Parker for the reminder,

    I kind of forgot that back in the late 80's the demand for better putting surfaces had people trying to grow bentgrass greens in south Florida. I remember on our golf course tours, superintendents were happy if they could keep 50 to 60 % of their bent in the summer and would reseed before the snow birds got back down. So I guess the cost of fungicides back then would have been more expensive then the cultural practices now.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

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