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Another Tragedy

127 posts
  1. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    12/14/2012 12:12 PM
    Earlier in the week we have a young guy kill two people in an Oregon mall. today it is far worse than should ever be imagined. A father of a student kills something like 26 people with about 18 being innocent kids. The shooter is only 20 years old. What has gone so wrong with society that we not only have these things happening but it feels like the frequency has increased. I know the first thing we will hear will be to ban guns. I think we need to ask ourselves a far deeper question about what is happening to our society. Why are so many people going this violent route? Do we no longer hold kids accountable growing up and they think this is a legitimate way to lash out? Has our society become so tolerant that we no longer question or pay attention to bad behavior and label it as bad? Are violent video games and movies coming back to haunt us? I wish I had some simple answer. What a horrible event to ever happen to anyone, especially kids! I thought this time of year was supposed to be joyous?



  2. Gary Carls
    Gary Carls avatar
    20 posts
    12/14/2012 12:12 PM
    Sandy,

    I just don't know what the answer is but it's terrible that these types of events keep happening so regularly. I started to watch the news last night and right away it got into some homicide which seems to be the lead story every night. I actually just switched the channel. For so many just starting in life to be gone so quickly has got to be some sort of sad statement about events in our society today.

    As you said, right now should be the season of celebration, not a time to be dealing with this sort of event. In this business I think many lose the importance of family and spending time at home when you need to. Family should be first and hopefully we can all work for employers who understand that.

    None of us can even imagine the pain and suffering so many families are feeling in Connecticut right now. Please keep all those affected by the tragedy today in your thoughts and prayers over the coming weeks.

    Gary K. Carls, CGCS, President - Oakland Turfgrass Education Initiative

  3. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    12/14/2012 1:12 PM
    There seems to be less fear. Whether it be fear of dying, no fear of consequence or fear of God. Could there be more people out there (then there use to be) that they are so less tolerant to crisis in life that they act viciously at what appears to be a flip of a switch? It sadly seems to be the norm.



  4. Steven Kurta
    Steven Kurta avatar
    2 posts
    12/15/2012 7:12 AM
    Was able to drive down to Philly and pick my son up from school for Christmas break -- and listening to the radio reports out of Newtown the entire way. He might've received one of the most awkwardly long hugs in his life.

    After a night's parsing of reports, and reading what's available this morning, I don't know how anyone can come to any meaningful workaround for predicting a murderous rampage by someone who is suicidal and has the means to systematically and selectively kill many people at close range.

    Driving a car up on a sidewalk isn't even in the same universe as this nor is the strawman argument of "if he killed them with X, are you going to ban X?"

    That you can conceal something that has the ability to quickly kill dozens of people available to unstable individuals and then throwing your hands up like "who knew" when something like this happens is crazytown. It's disingenuous. How many people do you think he could've killed with a rock?

    She didn't secure her collection/stash of guns, mentally unstable son takes them and goes berserker.

    * multiple guns/unsecured-unrestricted guns/mental instability-illness/broken family

    Which of those do you draw your box around?

    Here are facts, not opinion, no guessing, just numbers. Draw your own conclusions. Draw your own boxes.
    Be thankful you can hug your kids if you have them.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... ed-states/



  5. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    12/15/2012 10:12 AM
    Poof! Hand gun ownership is now illegal. Now what?



  6. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    12/15/2012 11:12 AM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Poof! Hand gun ownership is now illegal. Now what?


    All the criminal types will peacefully line up to turn in their weapons in exchange for rocks.



  7. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/15/2012 1:12 PM
    I grew up thirty minutes away from Sandy Hook, and I still have a lot of family in Connecticut. I have two kids the same age as those in the elementary school, and my sister is a Connecticut school principal. This event sickened and scared me.

    On the same day as the Sandy Hook tragedy, this incident in China was largely overlooked. It was reported in many media outlets, but I link you to Fox News, only so I can't be accused of pandering to liberal media:

    BEIJING – A knife-wielding man injured 22 children and one adult outside a primary school in central China as students were arriving for morning classes Friday, police said, the latest in a series of periodic rampage attacks at schools and kindergartens.

    The attack in the Henan province village of Chengping happened shortly before 8 a.m., said a police officer from Guangshan county, where the village is located.

    The attacker, 36-year-old villager Min Yingjun, is now in police custody, said the officer, who declined to give her name, as is customary among Chinese civil servants.


    A Guangshan county hospital administrator said the man first attacked an elderly woman, then students, before being subdued by security guards who have been posted across China following a spate of school attacks in recent years. He said there were no deaths among the nine students admitted, although two badly injured children had been transferred to better-equipped hospitals outside the county.Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/14 ... z2F989smX3[/i]

    This demonstrates that the U.S.A. does not have a monopoly on homicidal maniacs. China is as distant of a culture as you can get from America, so you can stop looking for flaws in our society that creates conditions for lethal madness; it happens everywhere.

    As horrific as the China attack is, no one was killed. The attacker was subdued by unarmed security guards. If the same attacker was armed with semi-automatic handguns, there would have been many killed and more wounded. The difference in the two attacks was the availability of handguns. You'll never convince me that Adam Lanza would have gone into that school and caused the same amount of carnage with a knife, a baseball bat, a bow and arrow, or whatever you want to use to draw a false analogy to firearms.

    One thing we can all be sure of, this won't be the last of these massacres, and they will continue unabated until there is a collective will to do something about gun control.

    There are two good reasons for possessing a firearm, law enforcement and military. For everyone else, they're toys. I have fired guns, target shooting, skeet shooting, plinking away at bottles and cans, and it's a lot of fun, I know, but for civilians guns are toys and you don't need them. To continue to lay the blood sacrifice of innocent men, women, and especially children at the altar of the Second Amendment so you might amuse yourselves is selfish and callous to a revolting degree.

    And don't give me the "self-protection" argument. If it's true that criminals could murder people with other weapons then it's equally true that you could defend yourselves with the same thing. Besides, who here among us has been attacked in our homes and defended themselves with a gun in a situation where no other weapon would do?

    And please stop with the "only crimnals will have guns" BS. Wrong! The police will also have guns, and they're the ones who take down 99.9% of the criminals. Civilians justifiably defending themselves with a gun or shooting an actual criminal happens more in the movies than it does in real life. Name me twenty incidents (one for each of the children murdered at Sandy Hook) where it's happened, and document them please.

    You can't put the manure back in the donkey, and guns are everywhere in the U.S.A. but getting a grip on gun control has to start somewhere. I don't know how to write the law, but I know something there has to be changed.

    Imagine those grieving parents in Sandy Hook, knowing that their children lived the last few moments of their lives in stark terror before being brutally murdered. Do you think it's any consolation to them knowing their freedom is intact under the Second Amendment?



  8. Rodney Crow
    Rodney Crow avatar
    0 posts
    12/15/2012 7:12 PM
    I think Paul Azinger said it very succinctly in a tweet yesterday:

    "Americans are free to do a lousy job of raising kids, glorify violent films/video games, omit God, then blame the gun for a murderers actions?"



  9. Stephen Ravenkamp
    Stephen Ravenkamp avatar
    1 posts
    12/15/2012 9:12 PM
    Unfortunately, any attempt at a rational national discussion of gun laws is immediately highjacked by radicals from both ends of the spectrum. I strongly believe the vast majority of people support the right of people to have guns. But I also believe the vast majority of people also support common sense gun laws. Rather than calling this "gun control", which initiaties a knee-jerk reation on both sides, I believe we should refer to common sense reguations as "gun safety." What is wrong with closing the huge loophole and requiring background checks for ANY gun sale? Would such a regulation stop a law abiding person from owning a gun? Why do people need to have assault weapons, high capacity magazines or armor-peircing ammo? Are these weapons good for hunting, target shooting, or do they make you safer? Will background checks stop criminals from getting weapons? No, but they may stop unstable people from easy access to them. Will a ban on assault weapons, high capacity magazines and armor-piercing ammo affect hunters, target shooters, or personal safety? No again. No gun regulation is going to affect criminals. But common sense regulations will definitely affect public safety in a positive way. The US has more weapons per capita than any civilized country. There isn't any country even a close second. The ratio of weapons to the number of citizens is very rapidly approaching 1:1. Yet, America has 80% of the non-war fatalities from gunshots in the world. The second ammendment was written many years ago. The framers and voters had no concept of modern day weapons. If so, I believe the amendment would have been framed differently. But, regardless of your politics, it is time to have a rational national discussion without letting the issue be highjacked by radicals on both sides.
    Steve Ravenkamp, CGCS



  10. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/16/2012 1:12 AM
    Stephen Ravenkamp, CGCS said: Unfortunately, any attempt at a rational national discussion of gun laws is immediately highjacked by radicals from both ends of the spectrum. I strongly believe the vast majority of people support the right of people to have guns. But I also believe the vast majority of people also support common sense gun laws. Rather than calling this "gun control", which initiaties a knee-jerk reation on both sides, I believe we should refer to common sense reguations as "gun safety." What is wrong with closing the huge loophole and requiring background checks for ANY gun sale? Would such a regulation stop a law abiding person from owning a gun? Why do people need to have assault weapons, high capacity magazines or armor-peircing ammo? Are these weapons good for hunting, target shooting, or do they make you safer? Will background checks stop criminals from getting weapons? No, but they may stop unstable people from easy access to them. Will a ban on assault weapons, high capacity magazines and armor-piercing ammo affect hunters, target shooters, or personal safety? No again. No gun regulation is going to affect criminals. But common sense regulations will definitely affect public safety in a positive way. The US has more weapons per capita than any civilized country. There isn't any country even a close second. The ratio of weapons to the number of citizens is very rapidly approaching 1:1. Yet, America has 80% of the non-war fatalities from gunshots in the world. The second ammendment was written many years ago. The framers and voters had no concept of modern day weapons. If so, I believe the amendment would have been framed differently. But, regardless of your politics, it is time to have a rational national discussion without letting the issue be highjacked by radicals on both sides.
    Steve Ravenkamp, CGCS


    Steve, I respect you as probably the most rational, intelligent, and circumspect person posting on this site. But the proposals you just made were proven ineffective at Sandy Hook.

    The shooter, Adam Lanza, stole the guns from his mother, who was from all reports a law-abiding citizen who acquired the guns legally, presumably after the required background checks. In fact, so far I haven't heard that Adam Lanza has any prior criminal record that would have disqualified him from legally buying a gun in most if not all states. It's reported he was refused by some gun dealer in Connecticut three days before the massacre, but I don't know on what grounds. Maybe because he wasn't yet 21 years old.

    Just so this discussion is grounded in facts, a recent Gallup Poll found 44% of Americans thought gun laws should be made tougher, while 54% thought that remain as they are or they should become less strict.
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

    I don't know if that fits the definition of a "vast majority", but I for one don't let majority opinion decide my own beliefs.

    "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
    H. L. Mencken
    US editor (1880 - 1956)

    Why would anyone be surprised that more guns in a society results in more gun deaths?



  11. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/16/2012 4:12 AM
    Rodney Crow said: I think Paul Azinger said it very succinctly in a tweet yesterday:

    "Americans are free to do a lousy job of raising kids, glorify violent films/video games, omit God, then blame the gun for a murderers actions?"


    There's some wild speculation for you. Azinger doesn't know the circumstances of Lanza's up-bringing, or what video games he played or what movies he watched. He might've played Mario inbetween science documentaries, for Azinger or the rest of us know.

    We don't yet know what was going on in Lanza's head, or what influenced him, but we do know for sure he had access to weapons that are capable of killing 26 people in 2 minutes flat. That we know.



  12. Robert Crockett
    Robert Crockett avatar
    4 posts
    12/16/2012 9:12 AM
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said:
    Rodney Crow said: I think Paul Azinger said it very succinctly in a tweet yesterday:

    "Americans are free to do a lousy job of raising kids, glorify violent films/video games, omit God, then blame the gun for a murderers actions?"


    There's some wild speculation for you. Azinger doesn't know the circumstances of Lanza's up-bringing, or what video games he played or what movies he watched. He might've played Mario inbetween science documentaries, for Azinger or the rest of us know.

    We don't yet know what was going on in Lanza's head, or what influenced him, but we do know for sure he had access to weapons that are capable of killing 26 people in 2 minutes flat. That we know.

    The wife and I wanted to purchase some games for the Grandson for Christmas. Could NOT believe all of the assault "so called games" on the market. His father " A wash out Army vet " plays them with him. Now divorced from our daughter. I see No answer for our situation. He is not allowed to play these games at our house. He is 7 yrs young. I truly believe these games Numb there senses.



  13. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/16/2012 9:12 AM
    [youtube">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is2x7QTZ8AI[/youtube">



  14. Timothy Walker
    Timothy Walker avatar
    0 posts
    12/16/2012 10:12 AM
    i think 7 is a bit young to be exposed to assault games...that said...i spent a childhood playing army, shooting guns with my dad, hunting, enjoying all things war and violent movies/games. i can't even imagine how someone else can do these horrific acts...

    the bottom line is - mental health. The kid was screwed up for whatever reason, a broken home, being a loner, who knows... Maybe we should ban violent video games or movies...perhaps that was his problem, he played grand theft auto or black ops a few too many times. Oh thats right, we have a rating system on games and movies. Must be 17 or 18 to purchase those types of games. Oh darn, the parents can purchase these games for their young children to play/watch. So much for that plan...

    Would gun control help - sure, would it have prevented the massacre in Ct - i really doubt it. The problem with our society is that everyone says " not my kid", where there child is the best and could never do such a thing. Maybe the parents could have prevented this by being involved with the child's well being. Sure he was 20, but they surely could see something wasn't quite right with him.

    As the father of 2 young children my heart broke for those families involved - including the shooter's. I can't even put words to paper to describe what they would be going through or words to help them. All I can say is god bless the victims and I hope something good comes out of all of this.

    Happy holidays to all of you!



  15. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    12/16/2012 10:12 AM
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said: I grew up thirty minutes away from Sandy Hook, and I still have a lot of family in Connecticut. I have two kids the same age as those in the elementary school, and my sister is a Connecticut school principal. This event sickened and scared me.

    On the same day as the Sandy Hook tragedy, this incident in China was largely overlooked. It was reported in many media outlets, but I link you to Fox News, only so I can't be accused of pandering to liberal media:

    BEIJING – A knife-wielding man injured 22 children and one adult outside a primary school in central China as students were arriving for morning classes Friday, police said, the latest in a series of periodic rampage attacks at schools and kindergartens.

    The attack in the Henan province village of Chengping happened shortly before 8 a.m., said a police officer from Guangshan county, where the village is located.

    The attacker, 36-year-old villager Min Yingjun, is now in police custody, said the officer, who declined to give her name, as is customary among Chinese civil servants.


    A Guangshan county hospital administrator said the man first attacked an elderly woman, then students, before being subdued by security guards who have been posted across China following a spate of school attacks in recent years. He said there were no deaths among the nine students admitted, although two badly injured children had been transferred to better-equipped hospitals outside the county.Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/14 ... z2F989smX3[/i]

    This demonstrates that the U.S.A. does not have a monopoly on homicidal maniacs. China is as distant of a culture as you can get from America, so you can stop looking for flaws in our society that creates conditions for lethal madness; it happens everywhere.

    As horrific as the China attack is, no one was killed. The attacker was subdued by unarmed security guards. If the same attacker was armed with semi-automatic handguns, there would have been many killed and more wounded. The difference in the two attacks was the availability of handguns. You'll never convince me that Adam Lanza would have gone into that school and caused the same amount of carnage with a knife, a baseball bat, a bow and arrow, or whatever you want to use to draw a false analogy to firearms.

    One thing we can all be sure of, this won't be the last of these massacres, and they will continue unabated until there is a collective will to do something about gun control.

    There are two good reasons for possessing a firearm, law enforcement and military. For everyone else, they're toys. I have fired guns, target shooting, skeet shooting, plinking away at bottles and cans, and it's a lot of fun, I know, but for civilians guns are toys and you don't need them. To continue to lay the blood sacrifice of innocent men, women, and especially children at the altar of the Second Amendment so you might amuse yourselves is selfish and callous to a revolting degree.

    And don't give me the "self-protection" argument. If it's true that criminals could murder people with other weapons then it's equally true that you could defend yourselves with the same thing. Besides, who here among us has been attacked in our homes and defended themselves with a gun in a situation where no other weapon would do?

    And please stop with the "only crimnals will have guns" BS. Wrong! The police will also have guns, and they're the ones who take down 99.9% of the criminals. Civilians justifiably defending themselves with a gun or shooting an actual criminal happens more in the movies than it does in real life. Name me twenty incidents (one for each of the children murdered at Sandy Hook) where it's happened, and document them please.

    You can't put the manure back in the donkey, and guns are everywhere in the U.S.A. but getting a grip on gun control has to start somewhere. I don't know how to write the law, but I know something there has to be changed.

    Imagine those grieving parents in Sandy Hook, knowing that their children lived the last few moments of their lives in stark terror before being brutally murdered. Do you think it's any consolation to them knowing their freedom is intact under the Second Amendment?



    Unfortunately emotion takes over in the wake of these circumstances. The fringe groups yell the loudest to either ban guns entirely or they say we need to arm every man, woman, and child with an assault rifle. Neither is reasonable nor should either be given consideration.

    Banning guns is not an option. The horse is out of the barn with that debate. There are millions of guns on the street and yes, if guns were banned then just the bad guys would have them. And yes police do take down the vast majority of the criminals but the police are the clean up crew of a crime. Generally, they show up after the crime has occurred. So it's up to the citizen to protect themselves. According to Just Facts, "* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]" Here's the link to their findings, http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime As you can see, guns are a major component in personal protection.

    I agree that gun regulations need to be in place such as bans on armor piercing rounds, assault rifles, etc. There is no justifiable reason to make those items available to the general public. I cannot walk into WalMart and buy an RPG so why can I buy a bullet that is for the sole purpose of penetrating a police officer's protective gear?



  16. Stephen Ravenkamp
    Stephen Ravenkamp avatar
    1 posts
    12/16/2012 10:12 AM
    Would stricter gun regulations have stopped what happened in Newtown? Probably not. But it's time to stop falling into the trap of taking eacfh of these tragedies as individual, isolated occurrences and look at the overall picture. Mental health is a huge part of the overall problem...both how we treat it and how we view our responsibility regarding it. But using the mental health card to obscure the fact that gun safety regulations need to be discussed is irresponsible. The second amendment is the law of the land. The right of law abiding citizens to have guns is not in question. But viewing the second amendment in its narrowest interpretation can only be described as political. Many other amendments have common sense restrictions. The first amendment guarantees free speech; but you cannot yell "fire" in a movie theater and use the first amendment to justify actions. It is time we view the second amendment in the same manner. None, and I repeat none, of the commonly proposed gun regulations (ban on assault weapons, ban on high capacity clips, ban on armor piercing ammo) would restrict the right of law abiding citizens to have guns. We already restrict the right of felons and adjudicated mentally ill people to have guns; and these regulations do not in any way restrict the rights of law abiding citizens. It is time to stop the knee-jerk emotional reation promoted by some that ANY restrictions are the precursor of a slippery slope to gun confiscation. As Steve Okula said, the proposed restrictions would not have prevented the Newtown tragedy; but maybe, just maybe, if high capacity clips would not have been available the death count might have been lower. And even if the tragedy could not have been stopped by regulations such as these, aren't they worth while if they save one or two or more of the lives of these innocents?
    Steve Ravenkamp, CGCS



  17. Steven Kurta
    Steven Kurta avatar
    2 posts
    12/16/2012 12:12 PM
    This.. Thanks, Tim.

    Timothy Walker, CGCS said:

    the bottom line is - mental health. The kid was screwed up for whatever reason, a broken home, being a loner, who knows...

    Would gun control help - sure, would it have prevented the massacre in Ct - i really doubt it. The problem with our society is that everyone says " not my kid", where there child is the best and could never do such a thing. Maybe the parents could have prevented this by being involved with the child's well being. Sure he was 20, but they surely could see something wasn't quite right with him.


    From a close friend's reply to another convo on this:
    [quote">I went to a school where there was prayer every day. We took classes in religion. Yet there was not only unspeakable evil perpetrated at that school, but active efforts by the people that ran the school, clergy and lay people, to cover it up. This spanned decades, in an affluent suburban town.

    So, you will forgive me if I look at posts or pictures or quotes saying the shootings happened becaus
    e "God is not allowed in schools" with a bit of derision and scorn. It's also a cop-out because most of the people saying these things are also against at any safeguards to keep weapons out of the hands of those who would do such things, but also are against the programs to help fund programs to help those with mental illness.

    It's not school prayer that's the problem, it's this country and the people within it thinking only about themselves, and seeing other people as Not My Problem, instead of trying to function as a society.



  18. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    12/16/2012 12:12 PM
    Interesting perspective...


    New York Law School Journal of International and Comparative Law
    1995 Symposium: Guns at Home, Guns on the Street:
    An International Perspective
    [Page 275]

    Posted for Educational use only. The printed edition remains canonical. For citational use please visit the local law library or obtain a back issue.

    INTERNATIONAL PERSPECTIVES ON GUN CONTROL
    James B. Jacobs *
    Thank you for inviting me to this very interesting conference. I'm not sure exactly why I'm here because I'm not a comparativist. I really am an Americanist who specializes in criminal law and criminology. One thing of which I'm certain is that we have a very, very severe crime problem, in particular a violent crime problem. And that problem should be provoking soul-searching throughout American society. Perhaps this conference is an illustration of just such soul-searching.

    By nature I'm a skeptic, as perhaps most law professors are, and I rarely swallow received wisdom easily. Thus, I find it odd and somewhat ironic that in answer to so many Americans why there's so much violence in the United States, so many Americans respond by demonizing two categories of inanimate objects-- guns and drugs. In other words, many people implicitly believe that: "It's got nothing to do with us; it's got nothing to do with our society. If only we could get rid of guns and drugs, all would be well." The only country other than the United States that I know well is Great Britain. In the common law, with all deference to our New Zealand colleague, Mr. Hastings, the right to bear arms was considered a fundamental right. Blackstone, the great codifier of the common law, listed the right to bear arms as one of the five fundamental rights.

    As Mr. Kopel says, there were no restrictions on firearm ownership through the nineteenth century, and, in Britain, not until the beginning of the twentieth century when, in response to fear of Bolshevik revolution, the government moved to disarm the lower classes.

    The task before us today is to sketch out a comparative and international perspective on gun control and determine what it can teach us about U.S. gun control policy. The received wisdom seems to be that since other countries have strict gun laws and low rates of gun violence, strict gun laws cause low violence, and that if the U.S. adopted strict gun laws, we would experience a significant reduction in gun crime. I am skeptical about this syllogism. First, it's not so clear that all those countries with low rates of gun violence actually have strict gun laws. England is a good example of that. Second, and more importantly, the correlation between so-called strict gun laws and low rates of gun violence may be spurious because some other factors may be the cause of both [Page 276] strict gun laws and low rates of gun violence. Surely that's not implausible, for example, when talking about Germany.

    There are also cases, like Jamaica, where strict gun laws coexist with high rates of gun violence. There are contrary cases like Israel where non- restrictive gun laws coexist with low rates of gun violence.

    Interestingly, the Israelis respond to threats of violence to their community, not by restricting guns, but by urging citizens to learn to use guns and to carry them. It's worth pondering why the Israelis see their security as being furthered by greater access to guns whereas many of us see our security as being furthered by greater restrictions on access to guns.

    However, the main point I want to make is that even if strict gun laws produced low rates of gun violence in other countries, the same result might not occur in the United States. Is there any conceivable reason to believe that in the United States strict laws wouldn't work? Well, for one thing we have a tremendous amount of criminal law in the United States; at the same time, we have a tremendous crime rate. We have more felony arrests in the United States in a year than does all of Europe combined. We have 1.3 million people in prison, also more than the combined European total. Is there reason to believe that criminals who are already violating burglary, robbery and rape laws would comply with gun control laws? Note that it has long been a federal crime for a person who has been convicted of a felony to possess a firearm.

    A second observation is that some U.S. states and cities do have strict gun laws. You cannot buy a gun in New York City very easily. You cannot get a license to buy a gun without a multi-month process of application to the police and a vetting that would probably make Canada, Britain, New Zealand look lax. In Washington D.C. you cannot legally buy a gun at all. Nevertheless, guns are abundant in both cities. Perhaps if a firearms prohibition blanketed the whole country, New York and Washington criminals would not be able to get guns, but such a belief, I think, requires a heroic leap of faith. I suppose it's ironic for a law professor to come before you and say that some of you and some policy analysts have too much faith in law. There exists an almost religious-like faith in the power of legislation to solve problems. I wish it were the case that we are just one law away from peace and security. This morning, Linda Fairstein said gun violence is primarily "a legislative problem." Is it really that easy? Let's consider an analogous problem, illicit mind and mood altering drugs. I need hardly to tell you that legislators have not been hesitant to pass scores of law prohibiting and severely punishing every conceivable aspect of trafficking in controlled substance and we have devoted one-[Page 277] fourth of our prison cells to drug offenders. But the drug traffic continues, seemingly undiminished.

    When I look out of my apartment's windows, practically any time of day or night, I can see people on every corner of Washington Square operating a 24-hour-a-day pharmacy. You can even purchase drugs within a stone's throw of some of the City's courts--all this despite a mountain of tough drug laws. I think our lack of success in suppressing drug markets should caution against optimism about our ability to shut down the firearms market. In other words, we should be skeptical that all we need to do to achieve the low rates of gun violence of other countries is to pass stricter licensing and other regulations.

    Frequently one hears the refrain that licensing for possessing and carrying firearms should be at least as strict as licensing for driving a car. In a number of states, like New York, it is as strict. Indeed, it is much stricter; firearms licenses, unlike drivers licenses, are difficult to obtain. But the argument for equating gun licensing with driver licensing exaggerates the efficacy of the latter. Does the driving licensing system contribute significantly to traffic safety? People pay money for drivers licenses all over the country. Is this essentially a tax system or a driver regulatory system? I would suggest that the driver licensing system achieves little more than collecting money from people. It works because it's easy to obtain a license and the fee is low. If the fee was high, or if the test was difficult to pass, or if the licensing process required months of navigating through red tape, a great many people simply would drop out of the system; hundreds of thousands in New York have already done so, or never became part of the system in the first place.

    To a large extent, the idea of reducing firearms violence through the passage of more law is a bedtime story that people understandably want to believe. The reality is that the story will not happen in real life.

    Placing so much importance on it may divert us from a more sober-minded analysis of the very devastating problems that we face. So is there anything to learn from comparative study? Obviously, there's always something to learn from examining other systems. We should continually ask whether there are programs, policies and technologies in other countries that are being aimed at regulating firearms that we have not tried. We must constantly be alert for ideas about regulatory models and strategies that we don't know about. My hunch is that other countries probably have not come up with many regulatory innovations because the gun violence problem is not as serious as ours. Thus, there's no reason for them to go to the lengths that we have, at least in some of our cities and states. The kinds of regulations that I hear about seem to be pretty [Page 278] run-of-the-mill: licensing, registration, taxation and so forth. Nor have I heard anything about novel strategies of enforcement.

    As a criminologist, I would like to know why criminals in many other countries do not use firearms. It seems to me very unlikely, at least in Britain, that the answer is lack of availability. If criminals in Britain wanted firearms they could obtain them, just as they obtain illicit drugs. It also seems very unlikely to me that the answer is effective deterrence, that the British criminal justice system somehow threatens its criminals into forgoing firearms. Their criminal justice system certainly hasn't deterred criminals from committing other kinds of crimes.

    There are a number of comparative jurisprudence issues that would be interesting to pursue. Is it considered "fair" in other countries to punish people severely for exercising self-defense with an unlawful weapon? To take another question, what kinds of punishments are actually imposed for the essentially victimless crime of possessing an unlicensed firearm in the situation where the person possessing has not threatened anybody? Is that considered a serious crime? There are some questions of comparative constitutionalism that occur to me. For example, are the developing nations in eastern Europe adopting a right to bear arms? Will the newly emancipated citizens of these countries see guarantee of individual access to firearms as an important or even essential predicate for maintaining a free society?

    * Professor of Law and Director of the Center for Research in Crime and Justice at the New York University School of Law; Johns Hopkins University, B.A. 1969; University of Chicago, J.D. 1973 and Ph.D. 1975.



  19. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/16/2012 2:12 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Banning guns is not an option. The horse is out of the barn with that debate. There are millions of guns on the street and yes, if guns were banned then just the bad guys would have them. And yes police do take down the vast majority of the criminals but the police are the clean up crew of a crime. Generally, they show up after the crime has occurred. So it's up to the citizen to protect themselves. According to Just Facts, "* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]" Here's the link to their findings, http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime As you can see, guns are a major component in personal protection.


    Clay, I don't believe that statistic for a second. Nearly a milion cases a year of citizens defending themselves from crime with a handgun?

    Let's do a little math. One million per year that means over the past fifty years there were 50 million such incidences in the U.S. We can prune that down knowing that decades ago there was a smaller population, so maybe 40 million incidents. There is probably some overlap, people who are unlucky enough to be assaulted on more than one occasion but smart enough to have a gun with them all the time, so say, 30 million cases.

    I'm over 50 years old. Why have I never met a single American who claims to have had this experience? Have you or anybody here met one? To make a comparison, Texas has a population of 25 million people, and I've met dozens of people from Texas, without ever having been closer than New Orleans.

    Here's another take on those statistics from a Harvard University study;

    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hi ... index.html



  20. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    12/16/2012 2:12 PM
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Banning guns is not an option. The horse is out of the barn with that debate. There are millions of guns on the street and yes, if guns were banned then just the bad guys would have them. And yes police do take down the vast majority of the criminals but the police are the clean up crew of a crime. Generally, they show up after the crime has occurred. So it's up to the citizen to protect themselves. According to Just Facts, "* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]" Here's the link to their findings, http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime As you can see, guns are a major component in personal protection.


    Clay, I don't believe that statistic for a second. Nearly a milion cases a year of citizens defending themselves from crime with a handgun?

    Let's do a little math. One million per year that means over the past fifty years there were 50 million such incidences in the U.S. We can prune that down knowing that decades ago there was a smaller population, so maybe 40 million incidents. There is probably some overlap, people who are unlucky enough to be assaulted on more than one occasion but smart enough to have a gun with them all the time, so say, 30 million cases.

    I'm over 50 years old. Why have I never met a single American who claims to have had this experience? Have you or anybody here met one? To make a comparison, Texas has a population of 25 million people, and I've met dozens of people from Texas, without ever having been closer than New Orleans.

    Here's another take on those statistics from a Harvard University study;

    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hi ... index.html



    I can"t help you out with the stat issue Steve. It's not my study or publication. I was a bit surprised at the number too. But there's what, 300 million plus people in America? So the 990,000 number is 1/3 of 1% of the American population has used a gun in self defense. I can think of 3 people I know that has used a gun to protect themselves. 1 killed the offender. I don't know the exact number of people that I know. Nor do I know the number of people that I know well enough who would share a self defense story with me. In the end, I don't know if the 990,000 is correct or not. But lets cut that number in half and make it 495,000. Or cut it in half again to 247,500. Still a lot of people.



  21. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/16/2012 3:12 PM
    The source you cite, "Just Facts", admits itself it is a "conservative/libertarian" organization and that it hold certain views. While it claims that these views don't skew its data, I doubt it.

    For example, "Just Facts" tries to tie a ban on hand guns in the UK to an increased murder rate, but the increase, from 12 to 14 murders per million people of population per year, is so small as to be statistically insignificant. The U.S. murder rate ranges from 50-60 people per million per year, and 2/3 of those are by firearms. In the UK, with about 20% of the population of the U.S., there are fewer than a dozen deaths by such cause per year.

    "Just Facts" position is that the UK would be safer if more people were allowed guns, which is absurd.

    I dirsregard anything coming from that source.



  22. Niemier Rick A
    Niemier Rick A avatar
    12/16/2012 4:12 PM
    [quote">Banning guns is not an option. The horse is out of the barn with that debate. There are millions of guns on the street and yes, if guns were banned then just the bad guys would have them. And yes police do take down the vast majority of the criminals but the police are the clean up crew of a crime. Generally, they show up after the crime has occurred. So it's up to the citizen to protect themselves. According to Just Facts, "* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]" Here's the link to their findings, http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime As you can see, guns are a major component in personal protection.

    Clay,

    The information from the link you posted is based on SURVEYS from a "national sample from commercial lists of likely gun owners". They then simply figured out the percentages and multiplied it to get their "facts". No facts, no incident reports, nothing. Hardly reliable data. I do not know anyone in all my life who has used a gun to protect themselves. I know more people who have had their guns stolen from them than used them for the original purpose...protection.

    Anyway, what really needs to be talked about is gun SAFETY, not gun control. Why did this kids mother in Conn. leave her eight guns where this kid could get to them? Why were there several large 30 round clips available for the rifle? If you had a mentally challenged person living in your home wouldn't you think it would be appropriate to make sure these guns were not available to them? Oh yes, she enjoyed target shooting. Does that give her the right to carelessly store these guns where her mentally challenged son could get his hands on them? I wonder if it ever crossed her mind that someday she would become the target? No one wants to take responsibility for this. If this mother enjoyed hammers instead of guns that this incident would have occurred?



  23. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    12/16/2012 5:12 PM
    Steve/Rick:

    Again, I don't make the stats, I'm just posting what's available. Use them as you see fit. Here's another link that you can toss if it doesn't meet your liking,

    http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html .



  24. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    12/16/2012 5:12 PM
    And this from The Orange County Register:

    Criminologist Gary Kleck estimates that 2.5 million Americans use guns to defend themselves each year. Out of that number, 400,000 believe that but for their firearms, they would have been dead.
    Professor Emeritus James Q. Wilson, the UCLA public policy expert, says: "We know from Census Bureau surveys that something beyond 100,000 uses of guns for self-defense occur every year. We know from smaller surveys of a commercial nature that the number may be as high as 2 1/2 or 3 million. We don't know what the right number is, but whatever the right number is, it's not a trivial number."
    Former Manhattan Assistant District Attorney David P. Koppel studied gun control for the Cato Institute. Citing a 1979-1985 study by the National Crime Victimization Survey, Koppel found: "When a robbery victim does not defend himself, the robber succeeds 88 percent of the time, and the victim is injured 25 percent of the time. When a victim resists with a gun, the robbery success rate falls to 30 percent, and the victim injury rate falls to 17 percent. No other response to a robbery – from drawing a knife to shouting for help to fleeing – produces such low rates of victim injury and robbery success."



  25. Niemier Rick A
    Niemier Rick A avatar
    12/16/2012 5:12 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Steve/Rick:

    Again, I don't make the stats, I'm just posting what's available. Use them as you see fit. Here's another link that you can toss if it doesn't meet your liking, http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html .


    Clay,

    I am not going to chase down all your links you choose to post. The one you did post cited no facts. I highly doubt that the guncite.com link contains any facts that are verifiable, or not so seriously jaded that a normal person would have to laugh at what it is trying to say. I can search the internet and find the same thing. Maybe you should read about some of the kids killed by your precious guns that are only used for protection and fun. I know nothing I say will convince you that gun SAFETY needs to be addressed in this country. If you cannot admit that something needs to be done about gun SAFETY then you've got your head stuck in the sand. Two questions...where is your gun right now? and where is your children right now? I hope you know where both of them are and both guns and children are safe! Parents in Conn can't say that!



  26. Niemier Rick A
    Niemier Rick A avatar
    12/16/2012 5:12 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: And this from The Orange County Register:

    Criminologist Gary Kleck estimates that 2.5 million Americans use guns to defend themselves each year. Out of that number, 400,000 believe that but for their firearms, they would have been dead.
    Professor Emeritus James Q. Wilson, the UCLA public policy expert, says: "We know from Census Bureau surveys that something beyond 100,000 uses of guns for self-defense occur every year. We know from smaller surveys of a commercial nature that the number may be as high as 2 1/2 or 3 million. We don't know what the right number is, but whatever the right number is, it's not a trivial number."
    Former Manhattan Assistant District Attorney David P. Koppel studied gun control for the Cato Institute. Citing a 1979-1985 study by the National Crime Victimization Survey, Koppel found: "When a robbery victim does not defend himself, the robber succeeds 88 percent of the time, and the victim is injured 25 percent of the time. When a victim resists with a gun, the robbery success rate falls to 30 percent, and the victim injury rate falls to 17 percent. No other response to a robbery – from drawing a knife to shouting for help to fleeing – produces such low rates of victim injury and robbery success."


    Again, Kleck ESTIMATES. Professor Wilson says survey says "something beyond 100,000". He even goes on to admit they don't know the right number, so is it above 100,000 really? A 1979-1985 study? Really? A 30 year old study? In that study, how many victims who defended themselves with a gun ended up being killed with their own gun?

    And all of this really means what Clay? How many shootings have we had in the last 10, 15 years where multiple people were killed by guns that had no hunting or defending purposes? These people weren't defending themselves. Assaualt rifles, large multiple round clips? How many guns does one person need to defend themselves? I know I have a hard time carrying 8 guns all at once. And I may need to shoot that robber 100 times, so that 100 round clip is important to me!



  27. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    12/16/2012 6:12 PM
    Rick Niemier said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Steve/Rick:

    Again, I don't make the stats, I'm just posting what's available. Use them as you see fit. Here's another link that you can toss if it doesn't meet your liking, http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html .


    Clay,

    I am not going to chase down all your links you choose to post. The one you did post cited no facts. I highly doubt that the guncite.com link contains any facts that are verifiable, or not so seriously jaded that a normal person would have to laugh at what it is trying to say. I can search the internet and find the same thing. Maybe you should read about some of the kids killed by your precious guns that are only used for protection and fun. I know nothing I say will convince you that gun SAFETY needs to be addressed in this country. If you cannot admit that something needs to be done about gun SAFETY then you've got your head stuck in the sand. Two questions...where is your gun right now? and where is your children right now? I hope you know where both of them are and both guns and children are safe! Parents in Conn can't say that!


    Rick,

    You're making a lot of assumptions that are quite frankly asinine. First, you assume I have an agenda with these links. Incorrect. I do not have a dog in this hunt. Just merely looking at what is available. If you choose to bury your face in the sand, so be it. Secondly you assume it is my guns that had something to do the horrible shooting. Again, wrong and absurd. Third, you assume that I have not read about those poor kids and their families. I have been glued to the news, both written and televised. Forth, you assume that I have no interest in gun safety. Go back and read every previous word I wrote and you will not find any such comment or suggestion. Actually I am in 100% agreement with you on this topic. But you somehow conclude that I have no interest in gun safety just because I have not endorsed your post about gun safety. How self absorbed and narcissistic of you. Lastly, you assume I own guns. I do not.

    Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt.



  28. Niemier Rick A
    Niemier Rick A avatar
    12/16/2012 7:12 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Rick Niemier said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Steve/Rick:

    Again, I don't make the stats, I'm just posting what's available. Use them as you see fit. Here's another link that you can toss if it doesn't meet your liking, http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html .


    Clay,

    I am not going to chase down all your links you choose to post. The one you did post cited no facts. I highly doubt that the guncite.com link contains any facts that are verifiable, or not so seriously jaded that a normal person would have to laugh at what it is trying to say. I can search the internet and find the same thing. Maybe you should read about some of the kids killed by your precious guns that are only used for protection and fun. I know nothing I say will convince you that gun SAFETY needs to be addressed in this country. If you cannot admit that something needs to be done about gun SAFETY then you've got your head stuck in the sand. Two questions...where is your gun right now? and where is your children right now? I hope you know where both of them are and both guns and children are safe! Parents in Conn can't say that!


    Rick,

    You're making a lot of assumptions that are quite frankly asinine. First, you assume I have an agenda with these links. Incorrect. I do not have a dog in this hunt. Just merely looking at what is available. If you choose to bury your face in the sand, so bit it. Secondly you assume it is my guns that had something to do the horrible shooting. Again, wrong and absurd. Third, you assume that I have not read about those poor kids and their families. I have been glued to the news, both written and televised. Forth, you assume that I have no interest in gun safety. Go back and read every previous word I wrote and you will not find any such comment or suggestion. Actually I am in 100% agreement with you on this topic. But you somehow conclude that I have no interest in gun safety just because I have not endorsed your post about gun safety. How self absorbed and narcissistic of you. Lastly, you assume I own guns. I do not.

    Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt.


    Clay,

    If you re read my statement you will see I stated YOU have your head stuck in the sand if you don't think something needs to be done about gun violence. My head is not in the sand or anywhere else, other than on my shoulders. I am not going to look at every biased link you put up. I am not assuming anything about you. I don't even know you, as you do not know me. I have no dog in this hunt either, other than not liking what is happening in this world because of gun violence. I do not expect anyone to endorse MY opinion on gun safety, only to really take a look at what is going on with gun violence in the US. You can call me all the names you wish. That is usually how one resorts when they feel lost. Nowhere in my posts have I resorted to calling you names or making personal attacks about you. Why do you feel it is necessary to attack me?



  29. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    12/16/2012 7:12 PM
    I will let your own words speak for themselves. In bold:

    "Clay,

    I am not going to chase down all your links you choose to post. The one you did post cited no facts. I highly doubt that the guncite.com link contains any facts that are verifiable, or not so seriously jaded that a normal person would have to laugh at what it is trying to say. I can search the internet and find the same thing. Maybe you should read about some of the kids killed by your precious guns that are only used for protection and fun. I know nothing I say will convince you that gun SAFETY needs to be addressed in this country. If you cannot admit that something needs to be done about gun SAFETY then you've got your head stuck in the sand. Two questions...where is your gun right now? and where is your children right now? I hope you know where both of them are and both guns and children are safe! Parents in Conn can't say that!"



  30. Niemier Rick A
    Niemier Rick A avatar
    12/16/2012 7:12 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: I will let your own words speak for themselves. In bold:

    "Clay,

    I am not going to chase down all your links you choose to post. The one you did post cited no facts. I highly doubt that the guncite.com link contains any facts that are verifiable, or not so seriously jaded that a normal person would have to laugh at what it is trying to say. I can search the internet and find the same thing. Maybe you should read about some of the kids killed by your precious guns that are only used for protection and fun. I know nothing I say will convince you that gun SAFETY needs to be addressed in this country. If you cannot admit that something needs to be done about gun SAFETY then you've got your head stuck in the sand. Two questions...where is your gun right now? and where is your children right now? I hope you know where both of them are and both guns and children are safe! Parents in Conn can't say that!"


    Oh, I see all the names I called you. Oh wait, that was your post to me that contained all the name calling. I sent you a private message so no one else has to deal with this crap.



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