Black Box In The Car Cancel The title field is required!

1. Ronald Kirkman

   

   42 posts
   
   10/31/2013 10:10 PM

   Greetings All;
   
   Am I hearing right on this matter? The government wants to put some type of device in your automobile, truck or whatever to track your mileage and tax you per mile. Any truth to this? What have you heard? Thanks
   
   Capt. Kirk
   Retired Alien
   Needham Golf Club
   Needham, MA 02492

   
   
   
   
2. Peter Bowman

   

   11 posts
   
   10/31/2013 10:10 PM

   Capt.,
   
   That way they'll know how much time you spent at the casino so they can tax you for that, too. Better start keeping track of your winnings.
   
   Apparently gasoline taxes supposedly used for road repairs aren't high enough already. You see, right now, all those electric cars are using the roads but not paying fuel taxes. Serves 'em right if it happens.

   
   
   
   
3. Clay Putnam

   

   33 posts
   
   11/1/2013 5:11 AM

   Yep, Capt it's true. A few states are running pilot programs as we speak. The premiss is as Pete states. The vehicles are getting better fuel economy along with electric vehicles are making it a burden to collect per gallon fuel taxes. As such, the government is collecting less money to maintain our roads and highways.
   
   The idea is to monitor your milage then tax you based on the number of miles driven thus everyone is taxed and not just the fuel users. Seems fair if the government drops the current 18% fuel tax. Additionally, I'm not crazy about a black box in my car. One state, don't recall which, is allowing the consumer to pay the tax based on the "average" milage of the entire state instead of installing a black box in their car. I'm also curious how they will address toll roads.

   
   
   
   
4. Sandy Clark

   

   0 posts
   
   11/1/2013 10:11 AM

   That black box would also be able to track how fast you are driving. for those of us with a bit of a lead foot, will we get speeding tickets in the mail along with our monthly auto use tax? Forget the concept of the current gas tax being dropped if they begin this program. It will be taxed both ways because all you evil drivers are destroying the environment and someone must be punished!

   
   
   
   
5. Canedo Alberto J

   
   11/1/2013 10:11 AM

   I would be screwed, if they do this. I drive a gas guzzler that gets 12 to 14 MPG and then my Smart Car sips fuel at 40 MPG. This would suck if it happens.

   
   
   
   
6. Keith Lamb

   

   3 posts
   
   11/1/2013 11:11 AM

   http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-roads-black-boxes-20131027,0,6090226.story#axzz2jPdbgVD2

   
   
   
   
7. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   11/1/2013 7:11 PM

   I think in theory the black box would tax all road users fairly based on the miles they drive. I would of course think trucks with more axles or weight differences would pay more than our Civic, CR-V and Accord. Of course that idea might be consider progressive, similar to you use more gas you pay more taxes.
   
   I would like to hear more debate, and more ideas to fix the problem. We could either use some sort of use tax such as mileage and gas taxes, maybe car registration fees and tags, or we could take the subsidies from the oil and gas companies and use that money to fix the roads, or we could direct more of our income taxes to roads that we all use. Or we have to stop bitching every time we hit a pot hole.
   
   I'm willing to pay an extra penny per gallon of gas if it goes right to road repair, I still would spend less than the repairs the potholes cause to my car.
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
8. Peter Bowman

   

   11 posts
   
   11/1/2013 8:11 PM

   Here's a novel idea that took me all of bout 2.8 seconds to think of....
   
   I buy gas for my truck and when I do I pay the built-in road taxes.
   
   When you drive your electric car you don't pay road taxes.
   
   You get a box and I don't.
   
   Maybe if they actually used all collected road taxes on roads we wouldn't need to be discussing this. Government waste at its best.

   
   
   
   
9. Nowakowski Michael J

   
   11/2/2013 11:11 AM

   I drive a half ton and maybe put on 10,000 miles in one year. The small engine guy I deal with drives a 1 ton diesel truck and puts on at least 100,000 miles in a year doing service calls, setting up ground thaw units, doing his landscaping/yard care business, etc. He is using the roads far more than me so should he pay more...I kind of think so. We debated this when I first read this on here and he did not like the idea but he does understand the point.

   
   
   
   
10. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    11/2/2013 1:11 PM

    Peter Bowman, CGCS said: Here's a novel idea that took me all of bout 2.8 seconds to think of....
    
    I buy gas for my truck and when I do I pay the built-in road taxes.
    
    When you drive your electric car you don't pay road taxes.
    
    You get a box and I don't.
    
    Maybe if they actually used all collected road taxes on roads we wouldn't need to be discussing this. Government waste at its best.

    
    
    "LIKE"

    
    
    
    
11. Joel Fielder

    

    0 posts
    
    11/3/2013 7:11 AM

    Michael Nowakowski said: I drive a half ton and maybe put on 10,000 miles in one year. The small engine guy I deal with drives a 1 ton diesel truck and puts on at least 100,000 miles in a year doing service calls, setting up ground thaw units, doing his landscaping/yard care business, etc. He is using the roads far more than me so should he pay more...I kind of think so. We debated this when I first read this on here and he did not like the idea but he does understand the point.

    
    
    But isn't he already paying far more than you considering he uses more fuel?

    
    
    
    
12. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    11/3/2013 8:11 AM

    Keith Lamb said: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-roads-black-boxes-20131027,0,6090226.story#axzz2jPdbgVD2

    
    
    Strange bedfellows...

    
    
    
    
13. Keith Pegg

    

    0 posts
    
    11/3/2013 2:11 PM

    I am not sure why we have to make everything so complicated, why not just do a odometer read each year at license time. You could even do self assessment like may people do in the county of reading your own and pay for miles driven each month and like the meter readers come once a year to check. Some people will cheat but they always will, forget about them and make the fine harsh when caught. The fuel tax works and this would also work. We do not need a black box.
    
    Keith
    Zama Japan

    
    
    
    
14. Sandy Clark

    

    0 posts
    
    11/4/2013 10:11 AM

    Why not just use the taxes on gas and diesel for road repair as was originally planned! If the levels of government would stop using money for unnecessary things it would work as originally designed. Don't put it in the general fund and then use it for something it wasn't intended. It already works. The people that buy fuel eating vehicles and those that drive the most are already paying their FAIR SHARE. Why not hold government accountable for the services they are responsible for? How about they learn at all levels to manage their financial resources rather than just asking for more so they can waste more!

    
    
    
    
15. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    11/4/2013 11:11 AM

    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: Why not just use the taxes on gas and diesel for road repair as was originally planned! If the levels of government would stop using money for unnecessary things it would work as originally designed. Don't put it in the general fund and then use it for something it wasn't intended. It already works. The people that buy fuel eating vehicles and those that drive the most are already paying their FAIR SHARE. Why not hold government accountable for the services they are responsible for? How about they learn at all levels to manage their financial resources rather than just asking for more so they can waste more!

    
    
    Sandy in most cases, (I can't say all), that is what is happening. But with the improved mileage standards and higher gas prices, which has cause people to change their driving habits, not as much fuel is being sold as I understand it, so states and the federal government are not getting as much revenue as they used to get as they try to continue to fix and repair roads. That's business 101, (yes the government is a business) you should only spend what you take in, (well except when you can borrow and pay it back with revenue later, but it seems people don't like the government to do what private business can do, even if it might save money and stimulate the economy).
    
    That's not to say that all projects governments take on should not be scrutinized and prioritized with a cost benefit. Also if there is a lot of money going into the general fund and being used on non transportation issues, that should be corrected.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
16. Sandy Clark

    

    0 posts
    
    11/4/2013 2:11 PM

    Mel, I don't believe for a moment they are selling less gas. We have more drivers on the road today than ever before. All of those drivers are pitching in with every gallon of fuel they purchase. Shoot, we had cars that got 20 mph when I was young. Toyota, Honda and Nissan have been making fuel economy cars for years. Are more of the cars getting better mileage? Obviously yes. We still have millions of gas guzzlers on the road and far more people driving so I doubt government is truly hurting for gas tax money. Charge those electric cars a special charging fee that goes directly to roads but don't penalize the rest of the drivers. As I said earlier, the original gas taxes will never be dropped so this will be a new tax on top of what you already pay.

    
    
    
    
17. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    11/4/2013 2:11 PM

    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: Mel, I don't believe for a moment they are selling less gas. We have more drivers on the road today than ever before. All of those drivers are pitching in with every gallon of fuel they purchase. Shoot, we had cars that got 20 mph when I was young. Toyota, Honda and Nissan have been making fuel economy cars for years. Are more of the cars getting better mileage? Obviously yes. We still have millions of gas guzzlers on the road and far more people driving so I doubt government is truly hurting for gas tax money. Charge those electric cars a special charging fee that goes directly to roads but don't penalize the rest of the drivers. As I said earlier, the original gas taxes will never be dropped so this will be a new tax on top of what you already pay.

    
    
    
    Sandy I do stand corrected according to the following article, mileage improvements have only improved 5%, of course the cost of repairing and building has gone up 55%, although that is a 60% difference, I am guessing money doesn't go as far as it used to. It does talk about how taxes haven't gone up since 1993. Even the Bush tax incentives that continue at the $400,000 level will adjust to inflation.
    
    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 0275251990
    
    According to this next article even the Chamber of Commerce who hates taxes suggests that they need to be raised.
    
    http://money.cnn.com/2013/10/21/news/ec ... s-gas-tax/
    
    All I know is by doing something like this that is as painless as possible; I would be in favor of. It puts people back to work and stops tearing the crap out of my car and hopefully I need to spend less on shocks, struts, tires and other items that take a beating.
    
    If the gas tax isn't the answer, let's find something else to fund infrastructure spending. I know when it comes to local infrastructure road projects such as new turning lanes, traffic lights and other stuff associated with new businesses, usually (well here anyway) CIP sales taxes are used for a certain time frame to pay for the infrastructure. So really the business doesn't pay for it the customers do.....and I thought those guys are the ones taken all the risks, but I am digressing.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
18. Sandy Clark

    

    0 posts
    
    11/4/2013 3:11 PM

    The thing someone would have to explain to me would be the relationship of the cost of a gallon of gas compared to what they are bringing in now. If the cost of raw material and production is higher it should translate directly into a higher return of taxes. Taxing something that cost a dollar versus $4 give or take means that the amount of taxes collected would be quite a bit higher. Why isn't that translating into the needed revenue for government to make these repairs. Believe me, I hate bad roads and San Diego can be near the top of the list in my opinion. My simple question is if you get so much more in the way of taxes from a $4 gallon than you do from a $! gallon, where does the differences go. shouldn't in theory that provide the needed increase to repair roads? The taxes aren't fixed in dollars or cents but they are a percentage of the cost of the good to be sold, so therefore it should provide much more.

    
    
    
    
19. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    11/4/2013 5:11 PM

    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: The thing someone would have to explain to me would be the relationship of the cost of a gallon of gas compared to what they are bringing in now. If the cost of raw material and production is higher it should translate directly into a higher return of taxes. Taxing something that cost a dollar versus $4 give or take means that the amount of taxes collected would be quite a bit higher. Why isn't that translating into the needed revenue for government to make these repairs. Believe me, I hate bad roads and San Diego can be near the top of the list in my opinion. My simple question is if you get so much more in the way of taxes from a $4 gallon than you do from a $! gallon, where does the differences go. shouldn't in theory that provide the needed increase to repair roads? The taxes aren't fixed in dollars or cents but they are a percentage of the cost of the good to be sold, so therefore it should provide much more.

    
    
    Sandy as I understand it, it is 18 cents per gallon, doesn't matter if gas cost $1.00 per gallon or $4.00 per gallon, not like a sales tax that is based on a percentage of dollar amount.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
20. Keith Lamb

    

    3 posts
    
    11/4/2013 5:11 PM

    If we didn't build a few of these we could pay for a few road repairs.......and healthcare.......education......etc...
    
    http://gizmodo.com/inside-the-pentagons-trillion-dollar-f-35-embarrassmen-1325863089

    
    
    
    
21. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    11/4/2013 6:11 PM

    Love theses quotes:
    
    "To be fair, the planes do fly..."
    
    "...they really are neat when they work!"

    
    
    
    
22. Peter Bowman

    

    11 posts
    
    11/4/2013 9:11 PM

    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:

    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: ......., not as much fuel is being sold as I understand it, so states and the federal government are not getting as much revenue as they used to get as they try to continue to fix and repair roads.
    
    Mel

    
    
    "Oh, poor me. I'm the state and/or federal government and I'm not getting as much of your hard-earned money as I used to get. Even though I told you I would spend it on road repairs, I've really been spending it on other crap instead. That's why your roads are in such disrepair. But please, I hope you think like Mel, and give me one more chance to spend your money wisely. Really, I'll be good this time,"

    
    
    
    
23. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    11/4/2013 10:11 PM

    Peter Bowman, CGCS said:

    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:

    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: ......., not as much fuel is being sold as I understand it, so states and the federal government are not getting as much revenue as they used to get as they try to continue to fix and repair roads.
    
    Mel

    
    
    "Oh, poor me. I'm the state and/or federal government and I'm not getting as much of your hard-earned money as I used to get. Even though I told you I would spend it on road repairs, I've really been spending it on other crap instead. That's why your roads are in such disrepair. But please, I hope you think like Mel, and give me one more chance to spend your money wisely. Really, I'll be good this time,"

    
    
    It is our fault then for not holding our represenitives accountable, but hey if you want to go back to the horse and buggy days and your dirt roads, send your businesses our way, we've been fixing our roads. Heck even my granny's road that was dirt 40 years ago is now paved.
    
    Mel
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
24. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    11/4/2013 10:11 PM

    Keith Lamb said: If we didn't build a few of these we could pay for a few road repairs.......and healthcare.......education......etc...
    
    http://gizmodo.com/inside-the-pentagons-trillion-dollar-f-35-embarrassmen-1325863089

    
    
    The funny thing is the current F-15's, 16's, 18's and stelths out fly our enemies now, same with the navy. We still fly B-52's that are over 50 years old.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
25. Ronald Kirkman

    

    42 posts
    
    11/4/2013 10:11 PM

    Mel,
    
    While you are at it please no more spending my money on education and no more spending my money on health care. You can give Obama your money but not mine. I know you have decent health care for your son and I hope the government won't screw you up and I also hope the same thing for Chris Thuer's child and others out there who really need the health care.
    
    Lord knows I need health care and I hope my wife and I keep ours through her school. We have already paid about $7000.00 this year plus the school which they pay I think 75%. Total from us and them is about $18,000 per year. We do get Medicare and when my wife retires we will go on Medicaid if the government still has it.
    
    However, I do not trust Obama. I think he is a LIAR without a doubt and I will be glad when his term is up.
    
    This Obama Care will put a big dent in the golf clubs budget. We have not even scratched the surface yet.
    
    Capt. Kirk
    Retired Alien
    Needham Golf Club
    Needham,MA 02492

    
    
    
    
26. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    11/4/2013 11:11 PM

    Ronald Kirkman said: Mel,
    
    While you are at it please no more spending my money on education and no more spending my money on health care. You can give Obama your money but not mine. I know you have decent health care for your son and I hope the government won't screw you up and I also hope the same thing for Chris Thuer's child and others out there who really need the health care.
    
    Lord knows I need health care and I hope my wife and I keep ours through her school. We have already paid about $7000.00 this year plus the school which they pay I think 75%. Total from us and them is about $18,000 per year. We do get Medicare and when my wife retires we will go on Medicaid if the government still has it.
    
    However, I do not trust Obama. I think he is a LIAR without a doubt and I will be glad when his term is up.
    
    This Obama Care will put a big dent in the golf clubs budget. We have not even scratched the surface yet.
    
    Capt. Kirk
    Retired Alien
    Needham Golf Club
    Needham,MA 02492

    
    
    Thanks Capt. We do have really good insurance right now, and right now we don't see any issues with the ACA, our employer has even been putting provisions of the ACA in place even before they are suppose to. Like I have said before, we haven't had any premium increases now for a year, and no changes in our deductables. We pay $5,000 a year in premiums, so it's not cheap, but it wasn't cheap before the ACA.
    
    question, are you talking about your golf club? Or all golf clubs?
    
    As for your club, do you all have 50 employees? Clubs with less then 50 employees will not have to provide insurance. Our course does not have 50 employees, I don't know if any course in our area has 50 employees except the 3 country clubs in town. Will be interesting to see what those clubs do.
    
    Is anything changing in Mass? You've had health care there for how many years now? How has it affected your state?
    
    I don't think the world is going to end. Hopefully those in congress will work together to fix the problems with the ACA.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
27. Andy Jorgensen

    

    1 posts
    
    11/5/2013 8:11 AM

    I'm surprised that nobody has brought up the fact that we all pay road taxes for the gasoline we purchase to maintain our golf courses. We purchase roughly 100,000 gallons of gasoline a year here for three golf courses and the landscape maintenance of about 3,800 homes. That roughly 100 trucks on the road a day. We pay the road taxes for our gas, yet 99.9% of all usage is done either off-road on the golf course, or on our own, privately owned and maintained roads. So the question is, why am I paying for it when I don't use it? How come there isn't an off-road equivalent for gasoline like there is for diesel?
    
    But, all the aforementioned comments make good points. I for one have a resident that powers his house with solar. Drives a Toyota Prius with an aftermarket battery installed so he can get over 100 miles per charge. He pays no road tax, but in the end has paid dearly for both his solar power system and his Prius. Just not to the government.
    
    Likewise, one of our maintenance shops is currently solar powered as well. We pay road taxes for our carts through fuel usage, yet don't use public roads. We're considering switching to electric carts next year to avoid paying this tax that we get no benefit from. Although minute, it lowers the amount in the county, state and federal coffers each year. I'm sure we're not the only ones.

    
    
    
    
28. Sandy Clark

    

    0 posts
    
    11/5/2013 9:11 AM

    Mel, we can agree on one thing. We do need to hold our representatives at all levels accountable. I don't want to sound elitist but the problem we face is so few people pay attention to anything! We are a very stupid voting public. People don't even know who the candidates are or what they stand for. Propositions are given cute titles and people don't study to find out what is in them. It is hard to hold people accountable when we have so many uninformed voters. Many are so stupid they shouldn't even be allowed to vote on issues involving money. They will believe a tv ad or junk they get in the mail but never study the issues. Until people wake up and pay attention, we never will hold anyone in any party accountable.

    
    
    
    
29. Sean Hoolehan

    

    0 posts
    
    11/5/2013 10:11 AM

    As for your club, do you all have 50 employees? Clubs with less then 50 employees will not have to provide insurance. Our course does not have 50 employees, I don't know if any course in our area has 50 employees except the 3 country clubs in town. Will be interesting to see what those clubs do.
    
    Is anything changing in Mass? You've had health care there for how many years now? How has it affected your state?
    
    I don't think the world is going to end. Hopefully those in congress will work together to fix the problems with the ACA.
    
    Mel
    
    Mel,
    
    The City of Springfield has less than 50 employees total? Do you have any seasonal staff at the course. We are being forced to limit our seasonal people to no more than 29 hours a week next year because of the ACA. Grounds keepers who worked between 8 and 10 months 40+ hours week will now have to work no more than 29. Its really hurting some people. Of course we will have to increase our staff size to make up the lost hours.

    
    
    
    
30. Ronald Kirkman

    

    42 posts
    
    11/5/2013 2:11 PM

    Hi Mel;
    
    Romney Care (I think) is going pretty well in Massachusetts. If you don't have insurance the state will provide it for you at a price. From what I heard it depends how much money you make for the cost of health care. My middle daughter who had Stage 3 breast cancer (She's a survivor - over 5 years) has a pretty good policy from the state. The deductable leaves something to be desired but she is doing ok with it. When she worked at Fidelity they had a great company plan.
    
    Massachusetts health care has cost money - I think over a billion dollars per year but not sure of actual numbers cause I never paid much attention to it.
    
    I did the payroll through December 31, 2012 and I had to keep track of state hours and now I remember the club paid a penalty for not insuring all the staff. Would you believe we had 74 employees (mostly part timers) on this 9 hole golf course. Granted most came from the clubhouse - waiters, waitresess, cleaners, bartenders, etc. With the new clubhouse came a lot of functions along with member gatherings. I don't do payroll anymore (thank goodness) and I don't know what will happen in fiscal 2014. For myself, I am salaried at a max of 20 hours per week which is fine with me. I doubt now that there will be 50 employees at Needham Golf Club. They simply can not afford it. It is true that the younger people were on their parents health plan. And, you would need a full time person to handle all the details on who gets what in health care. Not an easy job.
    
    Capt. Kirk
    Retired Alien
    Needham Golf Club
    Needham, MA 02492