Forum Groups

 

Forums / Politics / Debt Ceiling

Debt Ceiling

118 posts
  1. Spotts David A
    Spotts David A avatar
    7/27/2011 1:07 PM
    yeah Melvin I'm with you. If the rich need tax cuts to create jobs then why have they been holding on to every cent instead of making jobs? Their tax cuts haven't produced anything. They don't hire more people they just make fewer people do more, and the rich get richer. On our backs.



  2. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    7/27/2011 1:07 PM
    wahlins said:
    jkauffm1 said:
    wahlins said:
    dhomme said:

    So, I, and other economists, don't agree that the current debt situation is manageable.

    ~JMK


    Anyone who has studied Economics formally knows that if you ever see a True/False question that starts out, "Economists agree" the answer is FALSE. It is not an exact science and there will always be those who disagree with the obvious.


    I suppose I should have worded my sentenc better, as it insinuates that I'm an economist, while I'm really not. I enjoy the study of economics, but I'm more of an agronomist than an economist.

    Anyhow, relevant to this topic are the role of taxation and allocation of public asets. Those who think like I do dislike "progressive" taxation (and the whole political mess that comes with treating people differently) because it removes freedom from the individual. There are other economic reasons to dislike it, but on the principle side, I like preserving as much freedom as possible.

    With all the president's talk about forcibly taking money from some portion, though not all, of his own countrymen, I thought this quote from Arnold Kling (econ prof at Berman Hebrew Academy in MD and an economist I don't always agree with) was interesting:

    "You can redistribute consumption from the top 1% and give it to average Americans working in a car factory, or a Walmart. But it's an illusion to think you can redistribute investment from the top 1%, so that average Americans can have a higher living standard. Where do people think the car factory comes from? Or the Walmart building? BTW, this has nothing to do with trickle-down economics, a theory I reject. This is simple accounting."



  3. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    7/27/2011 2:07 PM
    If the all three wars which we are funding ended tomorrow it would not be enough. A start but certainly not the end. The biggest drain on the economy is entitlements...........reign in the entitlements and we have a great starting point. SS and Medicare are not entitlements..........we have all contributed from the first real check any of us recieved and are still paying each and every week into those two funds. Unfortunately congress in it's infinite wisdom has pilfered most of it away.



  4. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    7/27/2011 2:07 PM
    The right advocates for the wealthiest Americans and the left advocates for ordinary Americans. The wealthiest Americans have the ability to affect public opinion while still remaining relatively anonymous (Koch Bros) in the minds of those who think they are well informed. These people don't care where their propaganda is coming from as long as they can swallow the hook. The Republicans inherited a surplus under Clinton and blame Obama for the deficit. The right in this country is beyond comprehension. The right will lose this eventually. Eventually the majority will look around and realize that their voting record is turning this into a third world country and vote for candidates who actually care about America.



  5. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/27/2011 3:07 PM
    sandy1 said: Mel, we were at statistical full employment for 7 of the 8 Bush years. We saw large job creation. Did we spend way too much? Absolutely. Between the wars, the prescription drug plan and a number of other areas we spent big money on, it became an accident waiting to happen. Currently, companies that can stock pile money are doing it due to the scary economy. Health care has scared them to death and most will continue to tighten up due to uncertainty. These job creators won't budge due to fear of higher taxes, higher costs and excessive government meddling and regulation. Adding taxes to the few percent that pay 80+% of taxes now will further hurt growth.


    Statistically? I haven't researched the numbers but I thought at least after Sept. 11th, 2001 many jobs where shed from businesses. I don't know of one industry (except maybe food service? well Homeland security and private security firms overseas) that grew, but please let me know of ones that did. As for the companies that are stockpiling money, I can believe some of it is from an uncertain economy, but if the demand for goods and services were out there, and companies could make more money selling more items, I'm dang sure they would be doing it. Health-care might play a part especially in small business, because they probably don't know how it will effect them, the big companies in my opinion know how it will effect them, heck they probably had their lobbyist in there writing the bill with the insurance companies. They have the resources to see that the health care won't affect their bottom line, just as they have resources (as in staff) to find every tax incentive for them to take advantage of. How would adding taxes hurt further growth, their is no growth now. Get some revenues into the government, put some towards debt, and some towards infrastructure. As far as the few percent that pay taxes, heck don't stop at those making over $250,000 , heck close the loop holes for more deductions, I'll stop deducting my work boots, my chapter dues, my chapter meeting cost, and other business related items I currently deduct, (if I make the percentage, some years I do some I don't) if need be, though I would hate it, maybe do a little with medical deductions, raise it to 8% instead of 7? or 9% even. So it is surgeries, and procedures that will allow you to deduct, not just prescriptions (although they can add up fast when one out of pocket is $500 a month) and regular doctors visits. Those could be some of the stuff that those of us making less could do to help out, so the rich don't have to share the whole burden and we can stop complaining about class warfare. There are many things that can be done, but no one has the guts to do it.

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  6. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    7/28/2011 7:07 AM
    [youtube">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2BCR7MEiMY[/youtube">



  7. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    7/28/2011 9:07 AM
    I just love this "republicans are advocates for the rich"..........it seems no one from the left made comment on the fact that Obama raised $86,000,000 in the last quarter for his re-election and on his way to the first BILLION $ campaign..............is it the rich republicans or the RICH dem's giving all that money to him? Give me a break pleeeeeeeeeze. We all know the unions have their hands in his pockets.



  8. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    7/28/2011 10:07 AM
    McCallum said: I just love this "republicans are advocates for the rich"..........it seems no one from the left made comment on the fact that Obama raised $86,000,000 in the last quarter for his re-election and on his way to the first BILLION $ campaign..............is it the rich republicans or the RICH dem's giving all that money to him? Give me a break pleeeeeeeeeze. We all know the unions have their hands in his pockets.


    Michele Bachmann has already received significant contributions from the Koch Bros. for her 2012 Presidential Campaign. Some on this forum believe the lies. MB, "We're running out of rich people in America."



  9. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    7/28/2011 10:07 AM
    Isn't quite possible that neither side has any answers? Like two spoiled brats fighting...both of them should have the livin' snot knocked out them.



  10. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/28/2011 1:07 PM
    Dave,

    As I have said before it is sad it takes all that money to run for president. I don't see their return on investment, but they must get. As for the difference between what the president has received so far and what the republicans have received so far, I think it's because there isn't a stand out republican yet, (not that I mean any of them are a worthy contender Romney seems ok, I thought McCain wouldn't have been a bad choice until he made that choice for his running mate.) But until one of these candidates emerges out of the pack, then watch the money pour in. But that's just my opinion.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  11. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    7/28/2011 1:07 PM
    conard said: Isn't quite possible that neither side has any answers? Like two spoiled brats fighting...both of them should have the livin' snot knocked out them.


    Just like with "Obamacare" the Democrats are giving the Republicans everything they ever asked for with the cost reductions. There is a spoiled brat that needs to be smacked around and if the Koch Bros. cannot brainwash a majority of the electorate, it is going to happen.



  12. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    7/29/2011 5:07 AM
    You guys from whatever side, should just get it done. You are dragging everyone else down with Get it passed short term then get together and act like idiots til it comes up again
    To me it just looks like the Republicans are going out of their way to destroy the economy so they can blame it all on the Obama.
    The rest of the world aint impressed



  13. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    7/29/2011 8:07 AM
    You're right Red and I for one don;t think they will get it down anytime soon. The world will not come to an end on Aug 2 but the financial markets will take another hit. The market has been in a steady decline all week with no relief in sight. I put my money were my mouth is............moved 100% of my 401k into a cash position until these idiots figure out what they are doing. Cannot take another hit like the fall of 2008.A 1.5% gain is a lot better than a 30% loss.



  14. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    7/29/2011 12:07 PM
    Mel.........well said.......all it takes is money to run for president and Obama is living proof. Michelle B could run for president for the next 2 years and not raise the money Obama has so far............and he is far from done. He will owe......lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of payback to those RICH liberals that are filling his coffers.



  15. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/29/2011 12:07 PM
    Dave, I think Michelle B. could run for president for 10 years and not raise that kind of money. She is pretty crazy and of course a hypocrite, with her farm subsidy payments and her husbands medicaid payments. They have been at the public feeding trough.

    I have to ask what do the liberals want in the way of favors? Just wondering, it seems the conservatives what less restrictions and regulations on businesses. To a degree, I don't mind that if they are willing to "play" fair and such. I don't know what the Buffets and Gates and others want? They seem to be ok with higher taxes.

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  16. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    7/29/2011 1:07 PM
    BallMark said: Dave, I think Michelle B. could run for president for 10 years and not raise that kind of money. She is pretty crazy and of course a hypocrite, with her farm subsidy payments and her husbands medicaid payments. They have been at the public feeding trough.

    I have to ask what do the liberals want in the way of favors? Just wondering, it seems the conservatives what less restrictions and regulations on businesses. To a degree, I don't mind that if they are willing to "play" fair and such. I don't know what the Buffets and Gates and others want? They seem to be ok with higher taxes.


    The only thing the conservatives want right now is the White House no matter how they have to get it. In other words, to hell with America. The people are getting it though. I was listening to the right-wing radio talk show host that was Allen West's first pick for chief of staff. Even she did not have anything good to say about this game the tea party is forcing their candidates to play.



  17. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    7/29/2011 4:07 PM
    You're absolutely right Scott........the American people are getting it and the latest Gallup poll proves it......Obama is now at a 40% favorable rating...........his bump from knocking of Osama is history.

    PS Glad to hear you stay in touch with America by listening to conservative talk radio....keep at it, eventually you might get educated. But what surprises me is you didn't get nauseated.......need to get that problem looked at. It could be something serious



  18. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    7/29/2011 4:07 PM
    Conservatives live by the polls and some like to disparage the First Lady's appearance in sophomoric emails. Regardless, their party is being run by Hobbits from Middle Earth and the sophisticated ones know it.



  19. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/30/2011 11:07 AM
    McCallum said: You're absolutely right Scott........the American people are getting it and the latest Gallup poll proves it......Obama is now at a 40% favorable rating...........his bump from knocking of Osama is history.

    PS Glad to hear you stay in touch with America by listening to conservative talk radio....keep at it, eventually you might get educated. But what surprises me is you didn't get nauseated.......need to get that problem looked at. It could be something serious


    Didn't look it up but I'm sure the favorable rating for congress is even lower. But until the Republicans can put a viable candidate up against the president, I still think he can win. Of course their best candidates might not get out of the primaries thanks to the far right. And I do get nauseated every time I listen to those on conservative radio, or I drive down the road yelling at them because they are so far from a balanced and middle approach.

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  20. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/30/2011 1:07 PM
    Just saw that poll David, it was only on the president, but I thought, (I was skimming the article) he is still polling higher then any republican candidate against him (If I read that correctly). The story from an earlier poll in July showed congress had an approval rating of 18%....I wonder what it is today?

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  21. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    7/30/2011 4:07 PM
    BallMark said: Just saw that poll David, it was only on the president, but I thought, (I was skimming the article) he is still polling higher then any republican candidate against him (If I read that correctly). The story from an earlier poll in July showed congress had an approval rating of 18%....I wonder what it is today?

    Mel


    It doesn't matter Mel. I think David would vote for Sarah Palin again because in his mind her clothes fit better than the current First Lady.



  22. Rosenthal Gregg
    Rosenthal Gregg avatar
    7/30/2011 6:07 PM
    Bottom line of this whole mess that started long before Mr Obama took office is this: Bi-Partisan is not a evil or bad term and does not mean evil doings. Compromise is how two party government (the American way) is designed to work so why all of a sudden does a small percent of inexperienced freshman politicians hold the rest hostage? It has become a Bizzaro Washington. To think Obama has a "blank check" is just plain stupid, no president ever had or has ability to just spend money except in time of emergency! Defense spending in the trillions was started by Republicans invading Iraq and Afghanistan or did we forget so soon. Afghanistan has had our troops longer than any other war in out history? but lets blame our current president, it is convenient. I hate to jump in as this argument is circular and no win as just like in DC each side will never agree and only believes its own statistics and "truths" THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM TODAY!

    Even a little compromise goes a long way but polarization = constipation!

    JMO



  23. Keith Lamb
    Keith Lamb avatar
    3 posts
    7/31/2011 3:07 PM
    In debt drama, voters play key, if overlooked role

    http://apnews.excite.com/article/20110731/D9OQR0RG0.html

    "People may bristle at the notion that we get the government we deserve. But there's no denying we get the government we elect. "



  24. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    8/1/2011 7:08 AM
    Well said Keith and something I have harped on for awhile. Deserving or not, we elect um.

    And Scott hard not to say that Sarah looks a little better in a dress than Michelle..........speaking from strictly a chauvinist's position.



  25. Keith Lamb
    Keith Lamb avatar
    3 posts
    8/1/2011 4:08 PM
    Glad I could posts something that you agree with. We are not that much different David....I'm just much better looking.



  26. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    8/2/2011 9:08 AM
    After all the talk about the debt ceiling, it turns out that the ceiling has nothing to do with what will happen to our credit rating. The various credit agencies have all told our leaders that real cuts in the deficit are mandatory to prevent a reduction in our rating. The only plan acceptable so far has been the one proposed by the representative from Wisconsin because it actually reduces the deficit. After days of going back and forth, our wise leasers only managed to slow the rate of increase on the debt. Our legislators still don't get it and we will still have the credit ratings reduced. Slowing the rate of increasing debt could be seen as success only in our political world. A bunch of bums need to be thrown out in 2012 and that crosses party lines! Elect those that understand that a cut means a real cut, not a reduction in the increase of debt!



  27. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    8/2/2011 9:08 AM
    Compromise did little, I agree with you Sandy. If bond ratings drop as expected as the bond raters are not very impressed with what just transpired, then interest rates will rise. The (laughable) $2 trillion is spending cuts will be negated by $5-7 trillion in rising costs. It was two weeks of showboating on both sides and the same ole results. Nothing really got done.

    When Vladimir Putun makes the statement that we are living above our means, and we are a dysfunctional economy we need to step back and look ourselves in the mirror. This coming from a communist......unless again that's our plan too.

    Time to move on to football predicitions...........at least in both college and the NFL you can count on change unlike Washington



  28. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/2/2011 9:08 AM
    Sandy are you talking about Paul Ryan? From everything I have heard his plan cost more then the presidents.

    I am actually disappointed with the president, he caved in too much by not looking at the revenue side, he didn't stand up back in December either and extended the Bush tax cuts. By not investing in the infrastructure which puts people back to work, I am afraid we are just moving backwards.

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  29. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    8/2/2011 12:08 PM
    Hell.......Mel I thought we caved!



  30. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    8/2/2011 2:08 PM
    The reality of the situation is that we are going to have to both cut entitlements and raise taxes. Anyone who says otherwise is just pandering to their base or naive. How about hammering the likes of GE? I pay more in taxes then they do.



View or change your forums profile here.