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Debt Ceiling

118 posts
  1. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/2/2011 3:08 PM
    Anyone hear that Apple has more cash then the government? I wonder if that's true?

    As my favorite comedian and his puppet Walter says, "Maybe we ought to have Steve Jobs run the country, I bet he has an app to get rid of the debt."

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  2. Steve Nelson
    Steve Nelson avatar
    0 posts
    8/2/2011 4:08 PM
    conard said: The reality of the situation is that we are going to have to both cut entitlements and raise taxes. Anyone who says otherwise is just pandering to their base or naive. How about hammering the likes of GE? I pay more in taxes then they do.


    Ron is right of course. Tax increases must come also if folks are serious about reducing the deficit. If you are worried that this will hurt corporate America then read this:

    http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ti ... 20207.html

    The wars must also end. Sandy, you can't really be worried about the bond rating agencies? The same folks that gave those mortgage derivitives and Goldman etc a great rating even though they knew they were junk. Their opinion is meaningless. We will retain the top rating because there is no where better to invest. The constitution does not allow us to default.



  3. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    8/2/2011 4:08 PM
    Revenue (taxes) is not the problem. Expenses are the problem. We cannot collect enough "rich peoples" earnings to pay for the debt. There just is not enough money. The Obama administration believes the debt reduction solution is to tax the rich while increasing spending. This is a formula for failure. There just is not enough "rich" money.



  4. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/3/2011 7:08 AM
    McCallum said: Hell.......Mel I thought we caved!


    I agree. What else could the cons do? The position they took was ridiculous as is the Tea Party. Eventually intellect and the good of the nation had to prevail. You can paint it anyway you want, but in the end I think the President got everything he wanted.



  5. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    8/3/2011 10:08 AM
    putnam said: We cannot collect enough "rich peoples" earnings to pay for the debt. ...... There just is not enough "rich" money.


    Maybe not but why not implement a flat tax rate? Everyone pays the same percentage, including those on entitlements. Sure it would never fly but wouldn't that be the fairest method? Also, how about a national sales tax? Again, fair but it won't fly because of the PC factor.



  6. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    8/3/2011 11:08 AM
    GE can't pay taxes.......he is chair of the presidents economic advisory team............you give a lot in campaign donations............you know everybody chip in lets say $86 million this quarter and no taxes for my buddies.



  7. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
  8. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    8/3/2011 5:08 PM
    conard said:
    putnam said: We cannot collect enough "rich peoples" earnings to pay for the debt. ...... There just is not enough "rich" money.


    Maybe not but why not implement a flat tax rate? Everyone pays the same percentage, including those on entitlements. Sure it would never fly but wouldn't that be the fairest method? Also, how about a national sales tax? Again, fair but it won't fly because of the PC factor.


    I'm all for a flat tax. A flat tax does seem to be the simplest and fairest method of taxation. But you are correct that many would oppose a flat tax because they feel, in part, that the "rich" should pay a greater percentage than the rest of us. A flat tax, however, still does not solve the debt problem. The spending portion of our national financial statement must be reeled-in. Otherwise, we are sticking our heads in sand if we do not implement serious spending cuts.



  9. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/3/2011 6:08 PM
    [youtube">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTMnkV4Ynb0[/youtube">



  10. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    8/4/2011 9:08 AM
    Clay why couldn;t they pass the hat at Barry's 50th birthday bash last night in Chitown..........it was only $35,000 per person.............I know he could spare........say $5k per person.............bet that room was full of those damn rich Republicans............those poor a$$ liberals can't afford that kind of money, right? WRONG!!!!



  11. Spotts David A
    Spotts David A avatar
    8/4/2011 1:08 PM
    they might be able to afford as much as those rich republicans but at least their willing to pay more taxes unlike those uncaring rich republicans :mrgreen:



  12. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/4/2011 3:08 PM
    wahlins said: http://ohsonline.com/articles/2011/07/27/70000-jobs-affected-by-faa-reauthorization-failure.aspx

    Yes, but the government doesn't create jobs! ;)


    I'm not sure if this post was serious or not, but I may just give the quick and dirty version on how the government can not create jobs. Government can employ people directly (hiring its own workers) or indirectly (giving money to other employers, who hire people). But, that money must come from somewhere, so the government either borrows it or takes it from someone (taxes). If it is borrowed, it must take money from someone (taxes) at some point in the future to pay for it. Taking that money from people via private income taxes reduces the money available for private folks to buy goods or services, which reduces the amount available to businesses to employ people, so unemployment increases. If money is taken from businesses via corporate income taxes, fewer people are hired, which also contirbutes to unemployment. Don't forget to account for overhead expenses -- taxes to gov't jobs in not a 1:1 relationship. Thus, if X dollars are removed from the economy via taxation, some amount less than X will be recycled via government employment.

    On the other hand, the private sector can actually create jobs (and wealth) by investment. I won't bore everyone or insult anyone's intelligence with the details here, but private investment and fractional reserve banking increase wealth and create jobs where using wealth that did not previously exist.

    Unfortunately, the political appeal of government spending stems from the fact that the jobs are noticeable to the average uneducated voter, while the handful of jobs lost here and there are often not recognized as casualties of the government spending program.

    Interestingly, from 1960 to 1988 there has been a positive, and statistically significant, correlation between public aid (as a percentage of GDP) and the unemployment rate. Conventional wisdom would have the public believe that as government "invests" in people the unemployment rate decreases. Yet the opposite is the case. For the same years there has been a positive, though statistically insignificant, correlation between government employment (as a percentage of total employment) and the unemployment rate. This suggests that as government work is created more jobs are lost elsewhere resulting in a rising unemployment rate.



  13. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/4/2011 3:08 PM
    I am not an authority, but I do know for a fact that authorities on the subject do not agree. If you are going to talk to me like an authority, I would appreciate knowing your educational background.



  14. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/4/2011 4:08 PM
    jkauffm1 said:
    wahlins said: http://ohsonline.com/articles/2011/07/27/70000-jobs-affected-by-FAA-reauthorization-failure.aspx

    Yes, but the government doesn't create jobs! ;)


    I'm not sure if this post was serious or not, but I may just give the quick and dirty version on how the government can not create jobs. Government can employ people directly (hiring its own workers) or indirectly (giving money to other employers, who hire people). But, that money must come from somewhere, so the government either borrows it or takes it from someone (taxes). If it is borrowed, it must take money from someone (taxes) at some point in the future to pay for it. Taking that money from people via private income taxes reduces the money available for private folks to buy goods or services, which reduces the amount available to businesses to employ people, so unemployment increases. If money is taken from businesses via corporate income taxes, fewer people are hired, which also contributes to unemployment. Don't forget to account for overhead expenses -- taxes to govt jobs in not a 1:1 relationship. Thus, if X dollars are removed from the economy via taxation, some amount less than X will be recycled via government employment.

    On the other hand, the private sector can actually create jobs (and wealth) by investment. I won't bore everyone or insult any one's intelligence with the details here, but private investment and fractional reserve banking increase wealth and create jobs where using wealth that did not previously exist.

    Unfortunately, the political appeal of government spending stems from the fact that the jobs are noticeable to the average uneducated voter, while the handful of jobs lost here and there are often not recognized as casualties of the government spending program.

    Interestingly, from 1960 to 1988 there has been a positive, and statistically significant, correlation between public aid (as a percentage of GDP) and the unemployment rate. Conventional wisdom would have the public believe that as government "invests" in people the unemployment rate decreases. Yet the opposite is the case. For the same years there has been a positive, though statistically insignificant, correlation between government employment (as a percentage of total employment) and the unemployment rate. This suggests that as government work is created more jobs are lost elsewhere resulting in a rising unemployment rate.


    JK, you make a lot of good points, but when you mention private sector creating jobs through investment, I can agree on some of it, but what private sector company is going to invest in building roads and bridges? Only outside their plant or their store are they going to pay for improvements and that is usually through a CID or through tax credits going toward the infrastructure improvement. That is probably the simpilist form. As for the FAA (I didn't read the link) Are the airlines going to invest in infrastructures like airports and runways? No usually the city that the airport is in will do that, yes the airlines (or us) pay for some of it, through taxes on tickets and fees. But there is only one airport built in the I don't know how many years that was built with private money (Branson) and there is debate at this time weither it is successful. Do you want to rely on the airlines inspecting their work without FAA oversite? Airlines can cut cost on maintenance to save money, how many people might this impact when planes go down? What of fire departments and police? I know some areas have very good volunteer departments but not all, and police, do we hire rent a cops? What happens when the security company puts profits over training, background checks, and the like. The government does play a part in creating jobs in my opinion. Now how some of the money gets spent and wasted, and projects were they truly needed, and not prioritized properly, I can agree that government has a problem there.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  15. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/4/2011 5:08 PM
    wahlins said: I am not an authority, but I do know for a fact that authorities on the subject do not agree. If you are going to talk to me like an authority, I would appreciate knowing your educational background.


    I don't have any more formalized economic training other than a couple of college classes and personal experience. I'm sorry if I came across like I was lecturing or being inconsiderate -- I certainly didn't intend to. But, I expressed the working of government employment on the macro scale as I understand it.

    If you think my assessment is wrong, please correct me. I love to hear what other people think, but my favorite part is WHY they think it to be so.



  16. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/4/2011 6:08 PM
    BallMark said:
    JK, you make a lot of good points, but when you mention private sector creating jobs through investment, I can agree on some of it, but what private sector company is going to invest in building roads and bridges? Only outside their plant or their store are they going to pay for improvements and that is usually through a CID or through tax credits going toward the infrastructure improvement. That is probably the simpilist form. As for the FAA (I didn't read the link) Are the airlines going to invest in infrastructures like airports and runways? No usually the city that the airport is in will do that, yes the airlines (or us) pay for some of it, through taxes on tickets and fees. But there is only one airport built in the I don't know how many years that was built with private money (Branson) and there is debate at this time weither it is successful. Do you want to rely on the airlines inspecting their work without FAA oversite? Airlines can cut cost on maintenance to save money, how many people might this impact when planes go down? What of fire departments and police? I know some areas have very good volunteer departments but not all, and police, do we hire rent a cops? What happens when the security company puts profits over training, background checks, and the like. The government does play a part in creating jobs in my opinion. Now how some of the money gets spent and wasted, and projects were they truly needed, and not prioritized properly, I can agree that government has a problem there.

    Mel


    We weren't talking about the role of government in providing things perceived as "public goods," (like roads, defense, etc) but we certainly can (and should) entertain that debate. It could help us all understand each other's opinions better. I simply demonstrated that government doesn't create jobs. Government can employ people, but that job is merely re-assigned, NOT created. I also didn't take a political stance on what I think should or should not happen -- I only said that, as a matter of economics and accounting, that the government does not create jobs -- it only redistributes the assets of its citizens.

    As for the FAA issue, I didn't take a position on that, either. But, check out this link from a Harvard econ prof's blog:

    http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2011/07/question-about-tax-incidence.html

    In his assessment, Dr. Mankiw talks about tax incidence and how it relates to this particular case. Remember that a lot of economics around tax policy deals with perception of permanence. Because the FAA issue is expected (perceived) to be temporary and short-lived (whether it really will be or not), behaviors are altered to reflect that impermanence. Mankiw assumes that airline seating supply is inelastic for the short term, thus no condition is present to change price relative supply.

    But, that is little more than an interesting mental exercise at this point. But, back to your post, government doesn't create jobs (even with police and fire), because it doesn't create the wealth used to finance those jobs. That wealth was created by someone else and redistributed by the government.

    Think of it like this: Microsoft began as two guys working out of their basement, but grew to employ thousands of people (creating jobs), using its own wealth. Government doesn't have its own wealth -- it takes it from you and me.



  17. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    8/4/2011 6:08 PM
    Think of it like this: Microsoft began as two guys working out of their basement, but grew to employ thousands of people (creating jobs), using its own wealth. Government doesn't have its own wealth -- it takes it from you and me.

    I understand what you're saying but isn't that just semantics? A business in the true sense of the word has consumers from which the business generates revenue. The business provides a good or service and the consumer pays a price for that good or service. The government can be looked upon as a business per se. The government generates revenue via the citizens, the government's consumers. The government provides civil service items (roads, police, fire, military, etc) as the good or service and the citizens pay for that civil service in the form of taxes.



  18. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/4/2011 9:08 PM
    putnam said: Think of it like this: Microsoft began as two guys working out of their basement, but grew to employ thousands of people (creating jobs), using its own wealth. Government doesn't have its own wealth -- it takes it from you and me.


    I understand what you're saying but isn't that just semantics? A business in the true sense of the word has consumers from which the business generates revenue. The business provides a good or service and the consumer pays a price for that good or service. The government can be looked upon as a business per se. The government generates revenue via the citizens, the government's consumers. The government provides civil service items (roads, police, fire, military, etc) as the good or service and the citizens pay for that civil service in the form of taxes.

    I'm glad you brought this up -- I hoped someone would. The parallel you're drawing is not completely accurate. A business does indeed draw revenue (as does the government), but the business uses its revenue to add value to a particular product or service, where the government does not. This added value creates wealth by creating a product whose total value is greater than the sum of its parts. For example, you value an assembled and operational car more than you value all its parts piled into a box. The business charges more for its final product than it pays for the parts and labor, which creates the wealth that enables new employment. Additionally, business investment (new technologies, additional equipment, etc) allow for greater productivity at lower cost, which increases the purchasing power of each dollar spent to purchase the product.

    The government, however, delivers no added value and is not in the business of turning a profit. By design, the government at best is a zero sum game, thus it can't create jobs because it is continually braking even at best. Rememberthat the objective of a business is to make money. The purpose of a governmetn is very much different. The road or bridge that is built will depreciate in value and will never create a return on the investment. Because not all public goods are used by all purchasers at all times and some purchasers may use much more than they pay for, no government product creates enough wealth to fund additional government products. Couple that with how government revenue is collected -- forcefully. Money paid to the government carrise no expectation of ROI or added value, but business transactions do.

    Because of the bureaucratic inefficiencies inherent in all types of government (call it administrative overhead, if you please), the end product will always be worth less than the expense that funds its production and returns very little to the government. In other words, the work of one government emloyee will never generate enough revenue to cover that employee plus hire one more. However, in successful businesses (not all are successful), the end product is always worth more than its expense and will often generate enough revenue to cover its expense and hire additional workers.

    Knowing this, is it any surprise that Obama (who has very little private sector experience) advocated turning our backs on technology and increasing the cost of doing business as a means to jobs? He was advocating what governmetn does well, but he doesn't have the experience to know that it does not lead to job creation.



  19. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/5/2011 6:08 AM
    So, the services provided by governmental agencies has no affect on the valuation of real estate in a particular location. Patrolling police officers could be replaced with emergency call boxes. Parks could be sold to the highest bidder. Libraries and schools could be boarded up. You could rely on volunteer fire/rescue and the price of your home would remain the same. Sounds like a solid plan to me!



  20. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/5/2011 9:08 AM
    wahlins said: So, the services provided by governmental agencies has no affect on the valuation of real estate in a particular location. Patrolling police officers could be replaced with emergency call boxes. Parks could be sold to the highest bidder. Libraries and schools could be boarded up. You could rely on volunteer fire/rescue and the price of your home would remain the same. Sounds like a solid plan to me!


    I didn't say that public goods should or shouldn't be part of a government's role and I didn't pass any judgement on the benefits or detriments of government administration of public goods. But, I did say that part of the reason that governments don't create jobs is that they don't usually engage in value added services. Police protection is not a value added service.

    That doesn't mean that the service is not valuable! It simply means that the government is not attempting to sell police protection for a fee. Although a tax supporting police protection may sound like a fee, it is not a fee for service, since those who do not pay the fee (visitors, passersby or passers through, tax evaders) often receive the same protection. Also, police departments rarely receive enough funding from their locality to operate -- state and federal grants are often used.

    But, let's not let this muddy up the issue. If we want to keep it as basic as possible, businesses invest to create wealth and their employees create wealth (added value), but governments do not.

    BTW, I enjoy these types of conversations, especially because they help us to understand why we think the way we do.



  21. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    8/5/2011 3:08 PM
    wahlins said: So, the services provided by governmental agencies has no affect on the valuation of real estate in a particular location. Patrolling police officers could be replaced with emergency call boxes. Parks could be sold to the highest bidder. Libraries and schools could be boarded up. You could rely on volunteer fire/rescue and the price of your home would remain the same. Sounds like a solid plan to me!



    I think JK would agree there is a vital role to government. After all, where would we be with dirt roads and no civil service. JK appears to have arrived at the table with a very well stated intelligent discussion regarding the role of government.



  22. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/5/2011 3:08 PM
    putnam said:
    wahlins said: So, the services provided by governmental agencies has no affect on the valuation of real estate in a particular location. Patrolling police officers could be replaced with emergency call boxes. Parks could be sold to the highest bidder. Libraries and schools could be boarded up. You could rely on volunteer fire/rescue and the price of your home would remain the same. Sounds like a solid plan to me!



    I think JK would agree there is a vital role to government. After all, where would we be with dirt roads and no civil service. JK appears to have arrived at the table with a very well stated intelligent discussion regarding the role of government.


    JK thinks there is no "ROI" or "added value" from government spending. He obviously wants dirt roads and conditions like Somalia. I like a fresh water system to my house and professional security for all. There are some very real differences between the right and the left.



  23. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/5/2011 5:08 PM
    wahlins said:
    putnam said:
    wahlins said: So, the services provided by governmental agencies has no affect on the valuation of real estate in a particular location. Patrolling police officers could be replaced with emergency call boxes. Parks could be sold to the highest bidder. Libraries and schools could be boarded up. You could rely on volunteer fire/rescue and the price of your home would remain the same. Sounds like a solid plan to me!



    I think JK would agree there is a vital role to government. After all, where would we be with dirt roads and no civil service. JK appears to have arrived at the table with a very well stated intelligent discussion regarding the role of government.


    JK thinks there is no "ROI" or "added value" from government spending. He obviously wants dirt roads and conditions like Somalia. I like a fresh water system to my house and professional security for all. There are some very real differences between the right and the left.


    Hang on a second here -- I even explicitly said that I wasn't taking a position on whether the government should provide services (spend money) or if it was good or bad. I don't know how you can glean what I think when I left my own opinion out of it.

    Again, when we're talking about creating jobs, we're talking about creating wealth -- making more wealth than there was previously. Businesses do this through investment (ie. machines that produce thins that are more valuable than the machine producing them) and adding value to products (ie. assembling parts into useful final products or refining materials). However, government does not invest, doesn't add value to products, and doesn't sell anything -- it only consumes wealth, but does not make it. Is there anything that the government sells to you that is funded only by user fees and not by taxes? This has nothing to do with political leaning, it is simply the machanics of human and institutional behavior.

    Like you, Scott, I appreciate clean water and navigable roads -- and gladly pay for them. I think that government services certainly have a place in our society. I also think that we must clearly define the role of government and carefully assess its impact on our freedom.

    Another thought -- could private industry create jobs without government money? I would submit that it could -- it happens every day. But, could government create jobs without taking money from private industry? I'm not so certain that it could.



  24. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    8/5/2011 8:08 PM
    jkauffm1 said:
    wahlins said:
    putnam said:
    wahlins said: So, the services provided by governmental agencies has no affect on the valuation of real estate in a particular location. Patrolling police officers could be replaced with emergency call boxes. Parks could be sold to the highest bidder. Libraries and schools could be boarded up. You could rely on volunteer fire/rescue and the price of your home would remain the same. Sounds like a solid plan to me!



    I think JK would agree there is a vital role to government. After all, where would we be with dirt roads and no civil service. JK appears to have arrived at the table with a very well stated intelligent discussion regarding the role of government.


    JK thinks there is no "ROI" or "added value" from government spending. He obviously wants dirt roads and conditions like Somalia. I like a fresh water system to my house and professional security for all. There are some very real differences between the right and the left.


    Hang on a second here -- I even explicitly said that I wasn't taking a position on whether the government should provide services (spend money) or if it was good or bad. I don't know how you can glean what I think when I left my own opinion out of it.

    Again, when we're talking about creating jobs, we're talking about creating wealth -- making more wealth than there was previously. Businesses do this through investment (ie. machines that produce thins that are more valuable than the machine producing them) and adding value to products (ie. assembling parts into useful final products or refining materials). However, government does not invest, doesn't add value to products, and doesn't sell anything -- it only consumes wealth, but does not make it. Is there anything that the government sells to you that is funded only by user fees and not by taxes? This has nothing to do with political leaning, it is simply the machanics of human and institutional behavior.

    Like you, Scott, I appreciate clean water and navigable roads -- and gladly pay for them. I think that government services certainly have a place in our society. I also think that we must clearly define the role of government and carefully assess its impact on our freedom.

    Another thought -- could private industry create jobs without government money? I would submit that it could -- it happens every day. But, could government create jobs without taking money from private industry? I'm not so certain that it could.


    JK,

    You'll come to learn to roll-with-it with Scott. He's really harmless; just has an over active keyboard toward those who have a valid opposing opinion. The cream will rise to the top...



  25. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/5/2011 9:08 PM
    putnam said:
    jkauffm1 said:
    wahlins said:
    putnam said:
    wahlins said: So, the services provided by governmental agencies has no affect on the valuation of real estate in a particular location. Patrolling police officers could be replaced with emergency call boxes. Parks could be sold to the highest bidder. Libraries and schools could be boarded up. You could rely on volunteer fire/rescue and the price of your home would remain the same. Sounds like a solid plan to me!



    I think JK would agree there is a vital role to government. After all, where would we be with dirt roads and no civil service. JK appears to have arrived at the table with a very well stated intelligent discussion regarding the role of government.


    JK thinks there is no "ROI" or "added value" from government spending. He obviously wants dirt roads and conditions like Somalia. I like a fresh water system to my house and professional security for all. There are some very real differences between the right and the left.


    Hang on a second here -- I even explicitly said that I wasn't taking a position on whether the government should provide services (spend money) or if it was good or bad. I don't know how you can glean what I think when I left my own opinion out of it.

    Again, when we're talking about creating jobs, we're talking about creating wealth -- making more wealth than there was previously. Businesses do this through investment (ie. machines that produce thins that are more valuable than the machine producing them) and adding value to products (ie. assembling parts into useful final products or refining materials). However, government does not invest, doesn't add value to products, and doesn't sell anything -- it only consumes wealth, but does not make it. Is there anything that the government sells to you that is funded only by user fees and not by taxes? This has nothing to do with political leaning, it is simply the machanics of human and institutional behavior.

    Like you, Scott, I appreciate clean water and navigable roads -- and gladly pay for them. I think that government services certainly have a place in our society. I also think that we must clearly define the role of government and carefully assess its impact on our freedom.

    Another thought -- could private industry create jobs without government money? I would submit that it could -- it happens every day. But, could government create jobs without taking money from private industry? I'm not so certain that it could.


    JK,

    You'll come to learn to roll-with-it with Scott. He's really harmless; just has an over active keyboard toward those who have a valid opposing opinion. The cream will rise to the top...


    JK, You completely failed to justify your opinion that government does not create jobs that increase the wealth of our country. In fact, your premise is asinine considering that without our government and it's employees the world would all be speaking German now.



  26. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    8/6/2011 8:08 AM
    wahlins said:
    putnam said:
    jkauffm1 said:
    wahlins said:
    putnam said:
    wahlins said: So, the services provided by governmental agencies has no affect on the valuation of real estate in a particular location. Patrolling police officers could be replaced with emergency call boxes. Parks could be sold to the highest bidder. Libraries and schools could be boarded up. You could rely on volunteer fire/rescue and the price of your home would remain the same. Sounds like a solid plan to me!



    I think JK would agree there is a vital role to government. After all, where would we be with dirt roads and no civil service. JK appears to have arrived at the table with a very well stated intelligent discussion regarding the role of government.


    JK thinks there is no "ROI" or "added value" from government spending. He obviously wants dirt roads and conditions like Somalia. I like a fresh water system to my house and professional security for all. There are some very real differences between the right and the left.


    Hang on a second here -- I even explicitly said that I wasn't taking a position on whether the government should provide services (spend money) or if it was good or bad. I don't know how you can glean what I think when I left my own opinion out of it.

    Again, when we're talking about creating jobs, we're talking about creating wealth -- making more wealth than there was previously. Businesses do this through investment (ie. machines that produce thins that are more valuable than the machine producing them) and adding value to products (ie. assembling parts into useful final products or refining materials). However, government does not invest, doesn't add value to products, and doesn't sell anything -- it only consumes wealth, but does not make it. Is there anything that the government sells to you that is funded only by user fees and not by taxes? This has nothing to do with political leaning, it is simply the machanics of human and institutional behavior.

    Like you, Scott, I appreciate clean water and navigable roads -- and gladly pay for them. I think that government services certainly have a place in our society. I also think that we must clearly define the role of government and carefully assess its impact on our freedom.

    Another thought -- could private industry create jobs without government money? I would submit that it could -- it happens every day. But, could government create jobs without taking money from private industry? I'm not so certain that it could.


    JK,

    You'll come to learn to roll-with-it with Scott. He's really harmless; just has an over active keyboard toward those who have a valid opposing opinion. The cream will rise to the top...


    JK, You completely failed to justify your opinion that government does not create jobs that increase the wealth of our country. In fact, your premise is asinine considering that without our government and it's employees the world would all be speaking German now.


    JK,

    I stand corrected. Scott is a creep and incapable of civil discourse. ;)



  27. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/6/2011 9:08 AM
    Clay, You post two off-topic unprovoked attacks in a row and I am the creep incapable of civil discourse?

    [youtube">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfkKS8auvJU[/youtube">



  28. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/6/2011 11:08 AM
    wahlins said:

    JK, You completely failed to justify your opinion that government does not create jobs that increase the wealth of our country. In fact, your premise is asinine considering that without our government and it's employees the world would all be speaking German now.


    Scott, we must not be participating in the same conversation, because I have not once taken ANY kind of position regarding desirability of the government, its services, or its employees -- I have remained completely neutral on the benefit of the government. If you think otherwise, plese post your proof for all to see. We're not debating the benefit of government here (although we can, I suppose). Here, we're debating your belief that the government can create jobs. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have government, which is wy I don't understand your reference to WWII -- I never said that we shouldn't have government. I only said that, economically, it doesn't create jobs.

    Its not impossible that I didn't make a good argument for my case, but I think I presented enough information to at least give a framework to back up my position. But, you haven't once presented any information backing up your position. If you think that the government creates jobs, please tell us why. If you tell me why you believe the way you do and explain to me how it works, maybe I can switch and support your position. But, at this point, you have provided no explanation for your position.

    Agronomically, I don't suppose you would buy and use a product based only on the salesman's word. You may ask him for research results, ask him to explain how it works, check his claims against your own agronomic knowledge and experience, and even ask other superintendents if it sounds like a sound product or practice. I've provided you all I can, but all you've given the rest of us is that you think my theory is asinine, while you won't explain your theory.



  29. Rosenthal Gregg
    Rosenthal Gregg avatar
    8/6/2011 12:08 PM
    I don't want to get into the middle of a dog fight but government both local and federal create lots of jobs. Civil servants positions are jobs and pay taxes. Government's bid out contracts to do work on roads, infrastructure, support our troops, support Federal infrastructure, building development of our infrastrucutre like dams, bridges and much more. Without this our country would not work. I will not need to provide proof as it is all around you, some of you may even be public employees, I have been. Parks both national regional local for instance have golf courses, most of which are self sustaining or profitable supporting other less profitable park enterprise facilities. You are arguing about the wrong point. Governments do their part to produce and stimulate jobs, but it is not their job to support and stimulate the economy by itself. It is just a part of the economic mechanism of our capitalist society......Think about it do not argue, be nice to each other...peace is in every step.....



  30. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/8/2011 8:08 AM
    Grosenthal said: I don't want to get into the middle of a dog fight but government both local and federal create lots of jobs. Civil servants positions are jobs and pay taxes. Government's bid out contracts to do work on roads, infrastructure, support our troops, support Federal infrastructure, building development of our infrastrucutre like dams, bridges and much more. Without this our country would not work. I will not need to provide proof as it is all around you, some of you may even be public employees, I have been. Parks both national regional local for instance have golf courses, most of which are self sustaining or profitable supporting other less profitable park enterprise facilities. You are arguing about the wrong point. Governments do their part to produce and stimulate jobs, but it is not their job to support and stimulate the economy by itself. It is just a part of the economic mechanism of our capitalist society......Think about it do not argue, be nice to each other...peace is in every step.....


    What I was trying to get at with all my longer posts is not that governments don't employ people -- you have given us lots of examples on how governments do have employees. But, I'm talking about delving deeper, going beyond the surface, and determining if the government actually created a job where there would not have been one otherwise. The bottom line is that the government doesn't create wealth and doesn't create jobs. It DOES employ people, but it does it using wealth it confiscated from others -- from people who could have used it to build wealth, invest, and create jobs. The government doesn't add new jobs to the economy -- it takes wealth out of the economy's left-hand pocket and puts it in the right-hand pocket, losing some to bureaucratic inefficiencies along the way, thus producing a negative ROI.

    I don't disagree that the government plays a vital role in our economy, which is part of the reason I oppose a federal balanced budget amendment. But, let's not confuse this role with the accounting of job creation. An entity that has no money of its own (remember, the government belongs to the people) can not create jobs. It can redistribute the welath of others and use it to employ people, but it can not create jobs. See the previous posts for more detailed discussion.



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