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Payroll Taxes

94 posts
  1. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/14/2011 11:12 AM
    Increase taxes on everything the vast majority makes by 2% or increase taxes by 3% on anything made over a million. How is this even a consideration?



  2. Samuel Leatherberry
    Samuel Leatherberry avatar
    0 posts
    12/15/2011 8:12 PM
    Or just get rid of the IRS and institute the Fairtax. It puts the tax burden in the hands of the people. If you can't or don't want to pay the tax on something don't buy it or buy used. Plus I don't understand why the democrats don't like it because it taxes he rich more because they spend the money and get taxed on the higher priced things they buy. But it's their choice and can choose not how much they want to pay. FREEDOM to make choices imagine that.

    Don't tell me it hurts the poor. Not true. Read the Fairtax book by Neal Boortz with an open mind.



  3. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    12/16/2011 9:12 AM
    Sam,

    Two questions or issues i have with it, if it's like a national sales tax? I understand that prescriptions will be taxed, two questions, doesn't that hurt the prescription plans with what the cost of medicines are, as they pay the sales tax? Same with the co-pay, we have a prescription that our co-pay is $500 bucks now your throwing a sales tax on that? Holy crap that is crazy, and their is no option of not buying it as you stated we have the option of buying things we need or don't need.

    The other issue, instead of buying new you can save taxes by buying used, wouldn't that hurt the new car market? Heck right now it is almost cheaper to buy new compared to the prices of some used vehicles that are just a few years old.

    Answer those questions and then I might be a believer, show the numbers to how it benefits most people.

    Thanks, Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  4. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    12/16/2011 9:12 AM
    Mel, remember that the national sales tax would replace an income tax, so you wouldn't have taxes withheld from your paycheck. Sure, your prescription would cost more, but you would take home more money in your paycheck, so it would all come out to a wash in the end. You would have just as much money left over after buying your scripts with one system as you would have with the other system.

    I also wouldn't be worried about the new car market. If they're already making more cars than we need, perhaps they should make fewer cars. But, that's beside the point -- used cars are already taxed when you buy them. Most states tax all vehicle sales, used ones included. They collect tax on a car each time its sold. In most states, you have to pay sales tax if you sign a car title over to someone else -- even if you didn't sell the car, just changed names on the title!



  5. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    12/16/2011 10:12 AM
    jkauffm1 said: Mel, remember that the national sales tax would replace an income tax, so you wouldn't have taxes withheld from your paycheck. Sure, your prescription would cost more, but you would take home more money in your paycheck, so it would all come out to a wash in the end. You would have just as much money left over after buying your scripts with one system as you would have with the other system.

    I also wouldn't be worried about the new car market. If they're already making more cars than we need, perhaps they should make fewer cars. But, that's beside the point -- used cars are already taxed when you buy them. Most states tax all vehicle sales, used ones included. They collect tax on a car each time its sold. In most states, you have to pay sales tax if you sign a car title over to someone else -- even if you didn't sell the car, just changed names on the title!


    JK, so your penalizing those with health issues that might be out of their control, disease caused by genetics, yet maybe it helps me loose some weight to avoid being diabetic, but some diseases aren't that way, and I'm not talking about a $10 or 20 dollar prescription for blood pressure, I'm talking about very high end prescription costs. Like I mention $500 co-pay say even if it got taxed our current rate of 6.6% it would be $33 times 12 months, for a total of $396, now add extra doctor's visits and even hospital stays the taxes could easily out strip the extra we bring home, especially those working for 8, 10 15 dollars an hour. Also is my employer still getting taxed on their portion of my prescription and other medical needs through our insurance? How does that lower costs, if they are still paying taxes on that? Then add on all the extra sales taxes for groceries? I don't see how this helps the majority of people. Are you going to tax my health insurance premium? That's $500 per month just for my wife and kid, another $33, plus if they tax mine which is another 500 (city pays 100%)

    I get about 10,000 taken out of my check per year, I think about 4,000 is for income tax and another 1,000 for social security, the rest is health care premium and state taxes, in some situations it is not going to be any better for people. That's just my opinion with the facts and numbers I have, I guess I could sit down with all the bills and such and see just how it's going to help, would like to know how much cost of goods get lowered as well. My wife's family was in manufacturing many years ago, most of the taxes they paid were the ones for payroll, they weren't paying taxes on raw material they brought in to make items. Have to see those cost savings and what they do to prices as well before I buy into it.

    Also what happens in an economic downturn relying on sales taxes? I know our city was hurt when people weren't buying things.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  6. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    12/16/2011 12:12 PM
    Hang on a second, Mel. The prescriptions wouldn't be more expensive on a relative basis. If something costs you $500, but jumps up to $600, it doesn't cost you any more as long as your income rises by at least $100. Under a "fair tax" program, your income would go up more than the sales tax number, thus makign your prescriptions cheaper. No one is being penalized.

    What happens in economic downturn? Not much different than what happens now. Tax receipts drop when income drops in downturns, just the same as buying drops. The difference in current examples from a flat tax is that not everything is taxed in current examples, like food. But, it will be taxed in 'fair tax' situations.

    I'm not saying that its the best way to go. But, I am saying that it won't make your prescriptions cost more.



  7. Samuel Leatherberry
    Samuel Leatherberry avatar
    0 posts
    12/16/2011 4:12 PM
    It has been a few years since I read the book and living in Atlanta, I get a good dose of Neal Boortz. I encourage anyone to read that book and judge for themselves what they think would happen under a FairTax system with an OPEN mind.

    Its a great alternative and at least there are some new ideas out there. The FairTax is a major change in the system and we need major changes not just little tweaks here and there. The system is broken.

    One final though that I remember from the book and it makes sense is that one industry versus another would not be exempt from the sales tax. This eliminates industries/lobbyists from buying politicians so that they can alter the tax code to benefit certain industries. It levels the playing field. Leveling the playing field is not what some people what though?



  8. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/16/2011 5:12 PM
    My knee jerk reaction to a Federal Sales Tax is that it must be a regressive tax because I was told that sales taxes were the most regressive taxes in Economics 101. Regarding Fair Tax I read that everyone would receive a "prebate" to cover the sales taxes associated with the spending done within the current figure that represents the poverty line. So if you are a family of four with a $50,000 income and the poverty line is $40,000 per year you would only pay taxes on purchases of over $40,000 per year. If you spent all $50,000 your annual tax rate would be 5% or $2300. But chances are, if you are spending everything you make, have a trailer on a piece of land you financed, two kids and a 401K, you are not paying ANY federal income taxes.



  9. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    12/16/2011 6:12 PM
    "I wonder how many times you have to be hit on the head before you find out who's hitting you? It's about time that the people of America realized what the Republicans have been doing to them."
    ~Harry Truman


    Scott,
    We haven't talked in awhile. I just thought I'd leave that up there for everyone to see for awhile, before you change it yourself, me being aware of your propensity to do so.

    You know what I wonder? I wonder how many times a poor, ghetto- or tenement-inhabiting never-married woman with three kids from different fathers - none of which are still in her life - has to get government checks for housing, food, welfare, childcare or whatever else before she realizes what the Democrats have been doing to her. That's what I wonder. Just keep voting for me and you'll continue to receive those checks.

    And go ahead and quote me on that. Just don't change the punctuation.



  10. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/17/2011 7:12 AM
    I am going to go with slavery, racism and poverty as having hobbled black families for generations.



  11. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    12/19/2011 7:12 AM
    Mel as Warren Buffet once said "General Motors is a health care company, that just happens to make cars on the side".............please dont lose sleep worrying and feeling sorry for the car companies. We all feel the pinch of the goverment in our weekly, bi weekly or monthly checks.......I will feel the "mans hand" remove over $35k from my checks before the year is over........doesn't feel good if it's 10k or 100k.


    Slavery as far as I can tell is no longer an issue in the United States......perhaps in repressive countries in Africa, the Middle East, the Far East it still exsists. The other two, poverty and racisim will never go away. They have exsisted since the beginning of mankind and will be with us to the end.



  12. Trevor Monreal
    Trevor Monreal avatar
    5 posts
    12/23/2011 7:12 AM
    Government sponsored policies/programs have done more to destroy the family structure (especially in the minority community) than slavery, racism, and poverty ever could.
    Rich people do not "troll" poor neighborhoods looking for ways to increase their own prosperity. Various groups and individuals like ACORN, Sharpton, Jackson, etc. do. Those that are there to "help".
    Crazy idea...how about a flat 23% tax and the government figure out how to operate within that. I bet then we would start to see policies to help grow the economy/business/jobs and less that support/grow poverty.



  13. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    12/23/2011 9:12 AM
    When you consider the nuts and bolts side of this foolish payroll tax deduction two month extension, think for a moment about the payroll companies. My wife does payroll for several of her clients and she says this two month thing causes nothing but nightmares. It is even more obvious that none of these political clowns have ever had to coordinate and do payroll at any point in their career. Here we go again with the usual unintended consequence of foolish politics. If this reduction is extended for the entire year, everyone will feel entitled to someone else paying part of their Social Security.



  14. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/23/2011 11:12 AM
    McCallum said: I will feel the "mans hand" remove over $35k from my checks before the year is over.


    The President of the turf school I attended (Lake City, Jerry Cheesman) told us there were two things the size of which men would overstate. The amount of taxes paid were not one of them, but related I guess. I know from David's previous posts that he is making much more than a $mill per year, so his percentage is at most 4%. Mine is 16% with a daughter still on the payroll.



  15. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    12/25/2011 3:12 PM
    Huh..........I only WISH I were making a million a year........if you know of any superintendents jobs paying that kind of money I'd love to hear about them. Too old to go get one now but would still love to hear about them.



  16. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/25/2011 4:12 PM
    McCallum said: Huh..........I only WISH I were making a million a year........if you know of any superintendents jobs paying that kind of money I'd love to hear about them. Too old to go get one now but would still love to hear about them.


    Based on your comments on here I just assumed you made over a million per year. Why do people (you) vote for politicians who will tax them more so they can pass legislation to tax the ultra rich less (and still not balance a budget)?



  17. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    12/26/2011 7:12 AM
    I don't generally vote for anyone that is for rasing taxes. And I have sworn to myself to never vote for any incumbent again...........whatever party affliation he or she may carry after their name on the ballot. You put them all in a sack and shake them up, reach in and you will pull out either a Demodon't or a Republican't. No difference. Politics in this country has become a zero sum game.........which is good for war.......you want a clear cut winner and loser............politics needs to be a game of compromise but unfortunately that's no longer the case. And again Scott far from bringing home a 7 figure check yearly.



  18. Steven Kurta
    Steven Kurta avatar
    2 posts
    12/26/2011 7:12 AM
    McCallum said: ...politics needs to be a game of compromise but unfortunately that's no longer the case.


    And at that, maybe more than a "game" and that they treat it like their actual freakin' jobs.
    Political parties and views aside, the lack of any cooperation from both sides is maddening. If any lesson is being gleaned off this by the next couple generations, I hope it's to elect people who are willing to work together, otherwise, they don't belong in this process and are in the way.

    Functional, realistic living is about compromise.
    Unless you're a Kardashian.
    Did I spell that correctly?
    Rosen?
    Little help.



  19. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    12/26/2011 9:12 AM
    Steve you're right and I chose a poor word "game"......perhaps the art of compromise might be better. Lets certainly hope the teens, the 20 and 30 somethings haven't fell in the entitlement mentality and do work to elect good people to office. We do not need nor want career politicians.



  20. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    12/29/2011 8:12 AM
    wahlins said:
    McCallum said: Huh..........I only WISH I were making a million a year........if you know of any superintendents jobs paying that kind of money I'd love to hear about them. Too old to go get one now but would still love to hear about them.


    Based on your comments on here I just assumed you made over a million per year. Why do people (you) vote for politicians who will tax them more so they can pass legislation to tax the ultra rich less (and still not balance a budget)?


    Maybe that's the problem -- assessing a candidate based only on what I think he will do for me, not what he may do that is right for everyone. I thought progressives were supposed to be caring and selfless. But, they vote basd on "what's in it for me"? Perhaps a bit of a mixed message.

    With regards to taxes, I don't think we ought to tax anyone a higher percentage than anyone else. In their simplest form, taxes are confiscation of property by the government. If you don't think so, try not paying them. The fully automatic assault weapons that they bring to your door in order to get your money signal something more than civil responsibility.

    Our founding documents reference life, liberty, and property as fundamental principles of this nation. How can progressives say they care about others when they are willing to take freedom and property arbitrarily?



  21. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    12/29/2011 9:12 AM
    Funny thing about the deal struck to extend the payroll tax level for two months. Our caring public officials added a tax to cover the difference that only impacts the middle class. If your house costs $650K or under, you are probably involved with Freddie or Fannie. If it costs more than $650k it probably won't be. That tax will go on forever. Both parties agreed to it. If anyone still sticks up for how these clowns spend and then cry for more, I don't know what it takes to convince you they already have more money than they need. You could make actual cuts in every department in every government from local to national and still have adequate money. It isn't a low tax issue, it is a spending and money management issue!



  22. Samuel Leatherberry
    Samuel Leatherberry avatar
    0 posts
    12/29/2011 3:12 PM
    sandy1 said: I don't know what it takes to convince you they already have more money than they need. You could make actual cuts in every department in every government from local to national and still have adequate money. It isn't a low tax issue, it is a spending and money management issue!


    Sandy, you hit the nail on the head. It's a money management issue. Its an absolute joke. It starts with society as a whole not knowing how to handle money. What do you think is more important in school, reading shakespeare or teaching personal money management? What do government schools do, keep people in the cycle of not knowing how to manage money. Then, politicians can get their votes because they think they are getting something for free.



  23. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/29/2011 4:12 PM
    I think most people would consider the statement, "Taxes are a confiscation of a persons' money done arbitrarily" to be pushing the envelope of what is reasonable. Arbitrary? That is the word you are going to go with? We fight two wars and cut taxes on the rich, then expect the middle class warriors and poor kids to pay/work for it. I think that is a good way to get yourself a nice piece of chocolate pie from "The Help"!

    I think most of people who complain about Governmental Management have never studied it or been involved with the budget process for a governmental entity. The diseconomies of scale are legislated by the folks you elect and have nothing to do with the employees who manage to get something done anyway. These drawbacks and slow downs are all associated with attempts to be perfectly clear, fair and honest in the awarding of jobs and contracts.



  24. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    12/30/2011 9:12 AM
    wahlins said: I think most people would consider the statement, "Taxes are a confiscation of a persons' money done arbitrarily" to be pushing the envelope of what is reasonable. Arbitrary? That is the word you are going to go with? We fight two wars and cut taxes on the rich, then expect the middle class warriors and poor kids to pay/work for it. I think that is a good way to get yourself a nice piece of chocolate pie from "The Help"!

    I think most of people who complain about Governmental Management have never studied it or been involved with the budget process for a governmental entity. The diseconomies of scale are legislated by the folks you elect and have nothing to do with the employees who manage to get something done anyway. These drawbacks and slow downs are all associated with attempts to be perfectly clear, fair and honest in the awarding of jobs and contracts.


    "The Help" -- I saw that movie. It was pretty good.

    But, let's try to get the quotes right. I didn't say this: "Taxes are a confiscation of a persons' money done arbitrarily." That may be your paraphrase of what I said, but its not what I said.

    To discuss it, though, you're interjecting emotional judgments into the situation. I'm just calling it for what it is. Taxes certainly are a confiscation of property -- the government declares something of yours should be transferred to them without your consent (you don't get to decide if you want to pay it or not). Sure, much of it goes to useful things, but that's not the point. The point is that it is taken from you under penalty of law without your consent. I'm not saying that this confiscation is good or bad -- it just exists.

    The arbitrary part is where the tax rates change. Take a look at the 2011 marginal tax rates from the IRS:

    •10% on taxable income from $0 to $8,500, plus
    •15% on taxable income over $8,500 to $34,500, plus
    •25% on taxable income over $34,500 to $83,600, plus
    •28% on taxable income over $83,600 to $174,400, plus
    •33% on taxable income over $174,400 to $379,150, plus
    •35% on taxable income over $379,150.

    Why do the cutoffs exist where they do? Why is 25% assessed on $34.5k to $83.6k? Why not $35k to $83k? There is no objective standard by which these are determined. The cutoffs are determined arbitrarily by subjective means. There is nothing stopping the government from saying, "Wahlin, we are setting the xy% rate at whatever you make this year" and there is nothing you can do to say you deserve to keep more of your own money. If you think you need more money to meet your obligations and feed your fmaily, tough luck. Someone else has decided how much of your own money you should get to keep.

    I think its important to keep this in mind as we talk about taxation -- what impact do our decisions have on the freedom of our citizens.

    If you think I'm off base, please let me know and explain why.



  25. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    12/30/2011 10:12 AM
    jk, I could be wrong but wouldn't congress legislate tax rates? So we theoretically do have representation on what amount of taxes are taken? (not that they listen to us, since we don't have the money to influence them).

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  26. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    12/30/2011 12:12 PM
    You're right, Mel, we do have influence in the process through elected representation. But, the question remains how are the tax rates and cutoffs determined? Its all still arbitrary and subjective. The value judgment of what you should be allowed to keep is taken out of your hands and decided by others.

    If taxes were more of a fee for service or a flat rate structure, this problem disappears and we wouldn't have some people treated different under the law than others. Maybe I'm trying to say that having different levels of freedom based on income is a bad thing.



  27. James Schmid
    James Schmid avatar
    1 posts
    12/30/2011 12:12 PM
    jkauffm1 said: Maybe I'm trying to say that having different levels of freedom based on income is a bad thing.



    Seriously? Are you serioulsy arguing that taxing the rich a higher percentage is taking away too much of their freedom? really? you're really actually trying to say that?

    Jim Schmid



  28. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/30/2011 2:12 PM
    jkauffm1 said: You're right, Mel, we do have influence in the process through elected representation. But, the question remains how are the tax rates and cutoffs determined? Its all still arbitrary and subjective. The value judgment of what you should be allowed to keep is taken out of your hands and decided by others.
    They are laws that are negotiated by congress. You can meet with your congressional representatives face-to-face.
    If taxes were more of a fee for service or a flat rate structure, this problem disappears and we wouldn't have some people treated different under the law than others. Maybe I'm trying to say that having different levels of freedom based on income is a bad thing.
    So instead of a chicken in every pot, we could have a toll for every road.



  29. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    12/30/2011 4:12 PM
    Jim, treating everyone equally under the law is not a novel concept. Our Constitution even expressly mandates it. We don't discriminate and remove freedoms based on other characteristics. Why is money different?

    Scott, how is it that you thought Congress was such a corrupt and unjust institution when it voted to decrease marginal tax rates for everyone (Bush Tax Cuts), but now, all of a sudden, you hold it up to be the epitome of what is right with the world? That's quite a switch in position.

    Either way, are you going to refute my position that taxes are government confiscations of property, the amounts of which are arrived at arbitrarily?

    I'm also not sure about the chicken and pot thing, but maybe you can discuss its relevance to a quote by James Madison, who authored the lion's share of the Constitution:

    "Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."



  30. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/30/2011 4:12 PM
    jkauffm1 said: Jim, treating everyone equally under the law is not a novel concept. Our Constitution even expressly mandates it. We don't discriminate and remove freedoms based on other characteristics. Why is money different?

    Scott, how is it that you thought Congress was such a corrupt and unjust institution when it voted to decrease marginal tax rates for everyone (Bush Tax Cuts),The Bush Tax Cuts/Wars were stupid, but I don't think I said I thought they were corrupt. but now, all of a sudden, you hold it up to be the epitome of what is right with the world?I think America is the best country in the world, but I think the Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck Tea Baggers are the worst Americans. That's quite a switch in position.

    Either way, are you going to refute my position that taxes are government confiscations of property, the amounts of which are arrived at arbitrarily?Go tell your congressional representatives that the government is confiscating your money in an arbitrary manner. You pay them to explain it to you.

    I'm also not sure about the chicken and pot thing, but maybe you can discuss its relevance to a quote by James Madison, who authored the lion's share of the Constitution:

    "Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."



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