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Payroll Taxes

94 posts
  1. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    12/30/2011 4:12 PM
    wahlins said: Go tell your congressional representatives that the government is confiscating your money in an arbitrary manner. You pay them to explain it to you.



    My congressional representatives didn't challenge my interpretation of taxation -- you did. My representatives made their thoughts known during their campaigns.

    I asked you to offer your own interpretation. If you think I'm wrong, please tell us why.



  2. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/30/2011 5:12 PM
    jkauffm1 said:
    wahlins said: Go tell your congressional representatives that the government is confiscating your money in an arbitrary manner. You pay them to explain it to you.



    My congressional representatives didn't challenge my interpretation of taxation -- you did. My representatives made their thoughts known during their campaigns.

    I asked you to offer your own interpretation. If you think I'm wrong, please tell us why.


    It is how laws are done.



  3. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    12/30/2011 6:12 PM
    wahlins said:
    It is how laws are done.


    I'm not sure what you mean here.

    What is how laws are done?



  4. James Schmid
    James Schmid avatar
    1 posts
    12/30/2011 10:12 PM
    wahlins said:
    jkauffm1 said: Jim, treating everyone equally under the law is not a novel concept. Our Constitution even expressly mandates it. We don't discriminate and remove freedoms based on other characteristics. Why is money different? So you are saying that levying the same rate of tax on each person equates to treating everyone equally under the law? Wouldn't equal treatment be levying the same amount rather than the same percentage?

    Scott, how is it that you thought Congress was such a corrupt and unjust institution when it voted to decrease marginal tax rates for everyone (Bush Tax Cuts),The Bush Tax Cuts/Wars were stupid, but I don't think I said I thought they were corrupt. but now, all of a sudden, you hold it up to be the epitome of what is right with the world?I think America is the best country in the world, but I think the Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck Tea Baggers are the worst Americans. That's quite a switch in position.

    Either way, are you going to refute my position that taxes are government confiscations of property, the amounts of which are arrived at arbitrarily?Go tell your congressional representatives that the government is confiscating your money in an arbitrary manner. You pay them to explain it to you.

    I'm also not sure about the chicken and pot thing, but maybe you can discuss its relevance to a quote by James Madison, who authored the lion's share of the Constitution:

    "Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."



  5. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    1/4/2012 9:01 AM
    None of you tax the rich more people have ever explained how much tax is enough! Beyond the envy factor and making you feel better when someone more successful than you is punished, what economic benefit is achieved. It is a proven fact that higher tax rates result in the affluent either deferring expenditures or finding a legal place to defer taxes on their money. These evil successful people already pay 80% of all taxes paid. They are already paying 50% or more of their earnings when you include all taxes. Do you benefit when they pay more? No, because the government would find more stupid ways to spend money and in the end, you wouldn't pay any less either! Higher tax rates result in less income to the government. Lower tax rates result in more money flowing through the system and more money for government. The age old problem is that more money for the government results in higher waste and spending and no reduction in the debt or deficit. Until government at all levels is restrained from spending on wasteful area, you will never see a solution. With good management, 10% could be taken out of every department in every form of government and the country would not be in crisis. The other people's money cycle must be broken.



  6. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    1/4/2012 9:01 AM
    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: None of you tax the rich more people have ever explained how much tax is enough! Beyond the envy factor and making you feel better when someone more successful than you is punished, what economic benefit is achieved. It is a proven fact that higher tax rates result in the affluent either deferring expenditures or finding a legal place to defer taxes on their money. These evil successful people already pay 80% of all taxes paid. They are already paying 50% or more of their earnings when you include all taxes. Do you benefit when they pay more? No, because the government would find more stupid ways to spend money and in the end, you wouldn't pay any less either! Higher tax rates result in less income to the government. Lower tax rates result in more money flowing through the system and more money for government. The age old problem is that more money for the government results in higher waste and spending and no reduction in the debt or deficit. Until government at all levels is restrained from spending on wasteful area, you will never see a solution. With good management, 10% could be taken out of every department in every form of government and the country would not be in crisis. The other people's money cycle must be broken.


    What an angry post!

    Peace Sandy,
    Tax-the-Rich-More Person



  7. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    1/4/2012 10:01 AM
    I concur, Sandy........again!

    And what exactly is angry about his post? I suppose stating an opinion that differs from your's is construed as being angry.



  8. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    1/4/2012 10:01 AM
    How much should the rich pay? Pay the families of each of the 5000 lost in Iraq $1 million each (that's cheap considering you guys like to give Wall Streeters $20 million bonuses, they cheat and lie, and they are still alive!) and pay off the $1 trillion is debt that we incurred for that war. Let's start there and I will be negotiating up, not down.



  9. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/4/2012 11:01 AM
    Sandy, the economy was working pretty good when the rich was taxed at what 36% in the 90's? Of course there was a lot of waste too, a lot of government spending, I wonder how much that contributed to the economy?

    I agree the government could do with some less spending, they could also fix what people are allowed on deductions. Heck they give deductions for hiring new people, deductions for hiring vets, deductions for all sorts of stuff, which I don't have a problem with unless it doesn't allow the government enough money to pay it's bills. I heard on "Morning Joe" one morning about how we arrive at tax deductions and incentives and all the tax code issues. Someone comes up with an idea about giving a tax deduction to new hires, hey that sounds like a good idea to stimulate the economy, while maybe it does, it's nothing more then a short term gimmick, hey let's give a tax deduction on business expenses or medical expenses, help out those that might have had a bad year of health or something, (I know we take advantage of it) sounds good, but maybe if my tax rate was lowered from whatever to 15% then I might not need the deductions, but then maybe I still do? I don't know without putting pencil to paper, if everyone paid 15% regardless would that be enough to run the government?

    Maybe the government needs to go to a zero based budget, then build their budgets from there and then we will know how much we need to tax.

    Just my rant and opinion.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  10. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    1/4/2012 11:01 AM
    Mel, that's exactly how the payroll tax holiday was arrived at -- let's give a tax break to a group we feel may "need" it (need is often subjective) or to those we feel might vote for us.



  11. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    1/4/2012 12:01 PM
    Ok, we have some common ground. I fully agree with Scott that much more should be done for our veterans, especially those that have been injured. I also agree with Mel that we should throw out the current tax system and create some form of equitable system. Those are certainly non-partisan views that make sense. When you think of the Buffets or others of that wealth, it bugs me when they say raise taxes on the wealthy. They will always shield their money by way of their foundations. Nobody will argue with a fair and sensible tax system. Currently, you cannot get two IRS agents to give you the same opinion on any tax form being submitted. I have no problem with eliminating what is considered corporate welfare. A fair system would provide low corporate taxes, keeping companies in the U.S. but eliminating the true scam deductions. That benefits everyone. Give everyone a chance to get rich, not penalize those that do!



  12. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    1/4/2012 12:01 PM
    Sandy,

    I think most people are misunderstanding Buffet's point. He's saying change the laws. I laugh when people suggest that he simply write a check to the government. He's not stupid. He's taking advantage of every legal way to reduce his tax liability, as he should. No one would be expected to write a check for the difference in payroll taxes simply because they disagree with the law. Buffet's not hiding anything. He's using our existing tax codes to his benefit. Good on him! He, and many others including me, are simply asking that the tax codes are changed.....for the better....for everyone.



  13. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    1/4/2012 1:01 PM
    Jeff, I agree with you. All the major corporations and the so-called wealthy are doing the same thing. Congress has created loop holes for their friends or contributors for years and then they turn around and condemn the greedy corporations. Congress has created all these nightmares yet they keep blaming everyone around them. It is time for a major throw the bums out and completely overhaul or throw out the tax code and start over with a logical simplified system.



  14. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    1/4/2012 1:01 PM
    I have no problem with giving the families of those that gave the supreme sacrifice a million $ or whatever you want to choose. I feel somewhat offended that the 58,000+ that gave their lives in Vietnam are left out of the equation. Are we going to pick and choose wars now like we do "other" groups? As far as the bonus to Wall St executives, I have not ever authorized one, nor approved of one personally and have no control over those that do, except at the ballot box. We can all agree that lots of changes need to made in this country, we unfortunately cannot agree on how to achieve it.

    PS Still no answer as to why Sandy's comment were construed by you to be angry.......again not agreeing must the determining factor.



  15. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    1/4/2012 3:01 PM
    David McCallum said: PS Still no answer as to why Sandy's comment were construed by you to be angry.......again not agreeing must the determining factor.


    It is obvious to those who do not listen daily to right wing AM Radio rhetoric:

    "Beyond the envy factor and making you feel better when someone more successful than you is punished, what economic benefit is achieved."

    Who is envious and feels better when who is punished?
    Who is more successful than me?
    Are balanced federal budgets beneficial?



  16. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    1/4/2012 5:01 PM
    Scott, when during the working day do any of us have time to listen to talk radio? Where my maintenance facility is located, I get almost no reception anyway. I hear the news and politicians repeating Obama's fair share and all the other jealously comments every time I listen to the major networks. They all anxiously talk with glee about the 99 percent yet immediately mocked the Tea Party people as cooks and right wing extremist when they came out. Do I have some anger with the sad jealously that has arisen, yes! It wasn't that long ago when we respected the achievers who just so happen to also be the job creators. I wish all of us millions of dollars of success rather than blaming them because they have a little more than me. You are however correct in stating what determines success. Where you live, a good family and lots of friends are all that is required for many.



  17. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/4/2012 9:01 PM
    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: Scott, when during the working day do any of us have time to listen to talk radio? Where my maintenance facility is located, I get almost no reception anyway. I hear the news and politicians repeating Obama's fair share and all the other jealously comments every time I listen to the major networks. They all anxiously talk with glee about the 99 percent yet immediately mocked the Tea Party people as cooks and right wing extremist when they came out. Do I have some anger with the sad jealously that has arisen, yes! It wasn't that long ago when we respected the achievers who just so happen to also be the job creators. I wish all of us millions of dollars of success rather than blaming them because they have a little more than me. You are however correct in stating what determines success. Where you live, a good family and lots of friends are all that is required for many.


    I didn't know the tea party were cooks, I look at them differently now, my mom was a cook. I didn't even think they were crooks, just people that didn't like president Obama and were lead against him by the Koch brothers and their ilk by feeding them half truths and lies and the tea party believed what they wanted. (my opinion)

    Your right we did respect those achievers because they created jobs, now they just sit on wads of cash, one of these days they will realize that if they would have created jobs and kept the middle class going to help them make more wads of cash. Of course I'm painting with that big broad paint bush again.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  18. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    1/5/2012 8:01 AM
    Mel, to say that the TEA party were a bunch of people who had nothing but blind dislike for Obama and couldn't think for themselves without direction from the Koch brothers merely shows that you haven't bothered to learn what the movement stood for. Of course, you don't have to know or care what the movement stood for (this is still a free country and you can form whatever opinion you desire), but you can't expect others to understand your groups (Occupy or 99%) if you won't give other groups equal consideration.

    I also find something wrong with the reasoning of those who chastise others (business or personal) for their own private financial decisions. By declaring that business owners "just sit on wads of cash," you are insinuating that you know their private situations better than they know their own and that you are better suited than they are to make decisions for them.

    Would you find it acceptable if the media or the president were examine your finances and declare to the world that you're mismanaging your household and you should do things differently? Would you want someone to tell you that you shouldn't be sitting on that $30 you have in pocket and that you should give it to whatever cause someone else likes, but not the purpose you were going to spend it on?

    The story here is one of freedom. It might also be one of information, since no one but the individual or management team of the business can possibly know enough information to make a financial decision about another person or business.

    The "wads of cash" that you and the liberal media claim are being "sat on" are the property of someone else. You do not have the right to dictate how someone else operates his finances.



  19. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    1/5/2012 9:01 AM
    Ok Mel, I hit the c key instead of the k, It had been a long day!



  20. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    1/5/2012 10:01 AM
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said:
    jkauffm1 said: Jim, treating everyone equally under the law is not a novel concept. Our Constitution even expressly mandates it. We don't discriminate and remove freedoms based on other characteristics. Why is money different?

    Scott, how is it that you thought Congress was such a corrupt and unjust institution when it voted to decrease marginal tax rates for everyone (Bush Tax Cuts),The Bush Tax Cuts/Wars were stupid, but I don't think I said I thought they were corrupt. but now, all of a sudden, you hold it up to be the epitome of what is right with the world?I think America is the best country in the world, but I think the Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck Tea Baggers are the worst Americans. That's quite a switch in position.

    Either way, are you going to refute my position that taxes are government confiscations of property, the amounts of which are arrived at arbitrarily?Go tell your congressional representatives that the government is confiscating your money in an arbitrary manner. You pay them to explain it to you.

    I'm also not sure about the chicken and pot thing, but maybe you can discuss its relevance to a quote by James Madison, who authored the lion's share of the Constitution:

    "Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."



    I think the idea you would label the tea party, Rush, and Glen Beck as the worst Americans is the most irresponsible thing I have heard in a long time. Tea party especially! You take a portion of the population that IS from every walk of life including some here and label as WORST AMERICANS. What makes them worst? Views that differ from yours. Is this not what makes a democracy? I guess I wouldn't have thought anything if you would of said people, jerks or anything else but to use the tag of Americans is foolish. Am I to believe that you would rather see autocratic rule.



  21. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/5/2012 10:01 AM
    No problem Sandy just having some fun with you.

    John, I am just stating that is what I hear many businesses are doing, I'm or the government shouldn't be telling them what to do, but my point is and I didn't make it in my statement is, we have not raised taxes to pay for our debt because we can't hurt the job creators, well here we have given them that tax break and they aren't creating jobs, they are sitting on their cash. Now my opinion is that if they did create some jobs with that cash, it could help create a demand for more products and then they make more money, then can hire more people. But since there is no demand for their products they are going to sit on the cash. This is where government can play a role in my opinion, by creating infrastructure jobs that we know we need, that would put people to work, creating demands for products that people can now afford, thus allowing those business owners to make more money and hire more people. I can fault both parties because neither wants to make the hard decisions to fix the problem. Republicans don't want to raise taxes and want to cut government spending (except defense, that doesn't of course include Ron Paul), Democrats don't want to cut any entitlements or fix social security or medicare (which I don't count as entitlements). Where if they would come together with a mixture of both, I think they could fix some of these problems. Like I said with my post I was painting a very broad picture, but of the tea party crowd I hear in SW MO, I would stand by my statement that they just plain hate the president and democrats, and then their are some that speak with passion and thought on some things that I can agree with, of course some of it I won't, but until some of them change their attitudes, it will be hard to work with them....and that is my opinion on that as well.

    Now when you want to talk about the government telling me how to spend my extra $30 bucks, they kind of did that today when gas prices jumped 28 cents a gallon because as I understand it they didn't extend the subsides to ethanol, guess the oil companies are going to get theirs any way they look at it, I guess this would be for another debate, but would it be better for the economy for the government to subsidies some things?

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  22. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/5/2012 10:01 AM
    Jon Gansen said:
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said:
    jkauffm1 said: Jim, treating everyone equally under the law is not a novel concept. Our Constitution even expressly mandates it. We don't discriminate and remove freedoms based on other characteristics. Why is money different?

    Scott, how is it that you thought Congress was such a corrupt and unjust institution when it voted to decrease marginal tax rates for everyone (Bush Tax Cuts),The Bush Tax Cuts/Wars were stupid, but I don't think I said I thought they were corrupt. but now, all of a sudden, you hold it up to be the epitome of what is right with the world?I think America is the best country in the world, but I think the Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck Tea Baggers are the worst Americans. That's quite a switch in position.

    Either way, are you going to refute my position that taxes are government confiscations of property, the amounts of which are arrived at arbitrarily?Go tell your congressional representatives that the government is confiscating your money in an arbitrary manner. You pay them to explain it to you.

    I'm also not sure about the chicken and pot thing, but maybe you can discuss its relevance to a quote by James Madison, who authored the lion's share of the Constitution:

    "Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."



    I think the idea you would label the tea party, Rush, and Glen Beck as the worst Americans is the most irresponsible thing I have heard in a long time. Tea party especially! You take a portion of the population that IS from every walk of life including some here and label as WORST AMERICANS. What makes them worst? Views that differ from yours. Is this not what makes a democracy? I guess I wouldn't have thought anything if you would of said people, jerks or anything else but to use the tag of Americans is foolish. Am I to believe that you would rather see autocratic rule.


    Jon, it is no worse then what some of the 99% have been called in this forum. We are painting a group with a very large brush and we shouldn't. As John K. states (and I really haven't followed up on it) is we should look at what the tea party bunch thinks, maybe they do have some good points.

    When it comes to Rush and Beck, I have to agree, they are the worst of America, have you ever listened to their hate fill spew? Funny thing is I have heard Beck, O' Rielly, and Hannity on a show like Imus and they are interesting people, The problem I have at times with them is they will say stuff but not have information to back it up. Just my opinion though.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  23. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    1/5/2012 11:01 AM
    Mel,
    I agree with alot of what you said. I still believe when you say the worst of America, just think of that statement. How do you rate Bill Maher, Rachel Maddow, Rev. Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Keith Olberman, Blagovich, Letterman. Their are alot out there. All have done some really sleazy things but it seems it blows over. Rush has had problems yes but I was converted in fall of 94, and alot had to do with the same thing as today, all the rich do is sit on their money. (class warfare) Could it be that these people worked for their money and symbolize the American dream. How did Rush become wealthy is he old or new money an entrepreneur or an elitist who got it from dad?



  24. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    1/5/2012 11:01 AM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: No problem Sandy just having some fun with you.

    John, I am just stating that is what I hear many businesses are doing, I'm or the government shouldn't be telling them what to do, but my point is and I didn't make it in my statement is, we have not raised taxes to pay for our debt because we can't hurt the job creators, well here we have given them that tax break and they aren't creating jobs, they are sitting on their cash. Now my opinion is that if they did create some jobs with that cash, it could help create a demand for more products and then they make more money, then can hire more people. But since there is no demand for their products they are going to sit on the cash. This is where government can play a role in my opinion, by creating infrastructure jobs that we know we need, that would put people to work, creating demands for products that people can now afford, thus allowing those business owners to make more money and hire more people. I can fault both parties because neither wants to make the hard decisions to fix the problem. Republicans don't want to raise taxes and want to cut government spending (except defense, that doesn't of course include Ron Paul), Democrats don't want to cut any entitlements or fix social security or medicare (which I don't count as entitlements). Where if they would come together with a mixture of both, I think they could fix some of these problems. Like I said with my post I was painting a very broad picture, but of the tea party crowd I hear in SW MO, I would stand by my statement that they just plain hate the president and democrats, and then their are some that speak with passion and thought on some things that I can agree with, of course some of it I won't, but until some of them change their attitudes, it will be hard to work with them....and that is my opinion on that as well.

    Mel


    I see where you're coming from, Mel, but your stance on "sitting on cash" is predicated on assumed information. You assume that the reasons that some businesses are holding cash are improper because their thoughts on running their business differ from your own. You assume that simply spending this money (either on jobs or taxes) will help the business or the greater economy. And, you assume that all external conditions have no impact and that the problem can simply be fixed by employing more people. How can you generate a plan without knowing anything about these businesses? Don't think that any business is sitting on cash instead of making money. The only reason they would be sitting on cash is if they couldn't make more money spending it than sitting on it.

    This also brings up a side point about spending and saving. Instead of getting businesses and people to spend more, maybe we should be encouraging them to save more. Is it ever good advice to spend all you have?

    But, back to this discussion, we have to get out of this mindset that the government will bring the economy back. Infrastructure projects DO NOT bring an economy back – just look at the most recent two stimulus projects. Abysmal failures! Government spending only takes wealth out of production.

    You also can't decide not to consider SS and Medicare as entitlements – they are the two largest entitlements we have. Obama has also decreased funding to SS with the payroll tax cut and raped funds from Medicare in the PPACA bill.



  25. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    1/5/2012 11:01 AM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Now when you want to talk about the government telling me how to spend my extra $30 bucks, they kind of did that today when gas prices jumped 28 cents a gallon because as I understand it they didn't extend the subsides to ethanol, guess the oil companies are going to get theirs any way they look at it, I guess this would be for another debate, but would it be better for the economy for the government to subsidies some things?

    Mel


    This is a whole different subject. First, all subsidies are bad because they hide important information from the market. Markets are driven by information. Without accurate information conveyed by price, there's no possible way for producers or consumers to make wise decisions.

    Second, they didn't tell you how to spend your $30. You have the choice to buy gasoline or not.

    Third, "The oil companies are going to get theirs?" Do you expect everyone to sell something to you at a loss, simply because you want it? Do you take the lowest paying job, simply because your boss wants to get the best deal he can? I didn't think so. If it's not your gasoline before you pump it, you have no right to tell the guy who does own it what he should be allowed to make from it.



  26. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/5/2012 11:01 AM
    Jon Gansen said: Mel,
    I agree with alot of what you said. I still believe when you say the worst of America, just think of that statement. How do you rate Bill Maher, Rachel Maddow, Rev. Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Keith Olberman, Blagovich, Letterman. Their are alot out there. All have done some really sleazy things but it seems it blows over. Rush has had problems yes but I was converted in fall of 94, and alot had to do with the same thing as today, all the rich do is sit on their money. (class warfare) Could it be that these people worked for their money and symbolize the American dream. How did Rush become wealthy is he old or new money an entrepreneur or an elitist who got it from dad?


    Jon, have to disagree with you on Maddow and Olberman, especially Maddow, usually when she points out (not every time) an issue, she will have some facts or charts to back it up. She doesn't scream, I haven't heard her call someone a racists, socialist, commeanted on a republican candidates wife's butt. Maher is a comedian? Same as Stewart, but I love Stewart because most of the time when he does a gotcha he shows the proof, of course critics say he can edit stuff to not show it's whole content, same happens on Fox in my opinion. Sharpton, he talks a good game sometimes, but I don't take him seriously, he is like Ed Schultz, they kind of bellow, not as bad as say Rush but in that vain, they really just try to get people excited, not trying to get people to think. Blagovich, yeah he is bad, but 12 years? Heck the Dr. that basically killed Jackson only got a year. Letterman, yeah he did bad things, but no worse then O'Reilly so that's a push, plus I don't rate Letterman in the same view as the political hacks. I'll give it to you Rush made is money as an entrepreneur, but how he made it turns me off, but hey that's his gig and if he has sponsors and listeners that want to listen to him, so be it.

    As for your statement that all the rich do is sit on their money, my statement referred to the businessmen and entrepreneurs that are wanting to create businesses and jobs, I interpret (and that is dangerous in this type of forum) that I meant all rich.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  27. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/5/2012 12:01 PM
    John Kauffman said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: No problem Sandy just having some fun with you.

    John, I am just stating that is what I hear many businesses are doing, I'm or the government shouldn't be telling them what to do, but my point is and I didn't make it in my statement is, we have not raised taxes to pay for our debt because we can't hurt the job creators, well here we have given them that tax break and they aren't creating jobs, they are sitting on their cash. Now my opinion is that if they did create some jobs with that cash, it could help create a demand for more products and then they make more money, then can hire more people. But since there is no demand for their products they are going to sit on the cash. This is where government can play a role in my opinion, by creating infrastructure jobs that we know we need, that would put people to work, creating demands for products that people can now afford, thus allowing those business owners to make more money and hire more people. I can fault both parties because neither wants to make the hard decisions to fix the problem. Republicans don't want to raise taxes and want to cut government spending (except defense, that doesn't of course include Ron Paul), Democrats don't want to cut any entitlements or fix social security or medicare (which I don't count as entitlements). Where if they would come together with a mixture of both, I think they could fix some of these problems. Like I said with my post I was painting a very broad picture, but of the tea party crowd I hear in SW MO, I would stand by my statement that they just plain hate the president and democrats, and then their are some that speak with passion and thought on some things that I can agree with, of course some of it I won't, but until some of them change their attitudes, it will be hard to work with them....and that is my opinion on that as well.

    Mel


    I see where you're coming from, Mel, but your stance on "sitting on cash" is predicated on assumed information. You assume that the reasons that some businesses are holding cash are improper because their thoughts on running their business differ from your own. You assume that simply spending this money (either on jobs or taxes) will help the business or the greater economy. And, you assume that all external conditions have no impact and that the problem can simply be fixed by employing more people. How can you generate a plan without knowing anything about these businesses? Don't think that any business is sitting on cash instead of making money. The only reason they would be sitting on cash is if they couldn't make more money spending it than sitting on it.

    This also brings up a side point about spending and saving. Instead of getting businesses and people to spend more, maybe we should be encouraging them to save more. Is it ever good advice to spend all you have?

    But, back to this discussion, we have to get out of this mindset that the government will bring the economy back. Infrastructure projects DO NOT bring an economy back – just look at the most recent two stimulus projects. Abysmal failures! Government spending only takes wealth out of production.

    You also can't decide not to consider SS and Medicare as entitlements – they are the two largest entitlements we have. Obama has also decreased funding to SS with the payroll tax cut and raped funds from Medicare in the PPACA bill.


    John, part of the reason I don't consider SS and Medicare as entitlements is that we are paying into them, Obama and congress has decreased funding to SS with the payroll tax cut, quite honestly I'm not for that 100% because we will have to pay for it sometime.

    During the 50's and 60's and even before and after, look at how much was being put into the interstate system, dams, bridges, creating a huge middle class, cities where building, I don't know how much of that was public funding or private funding but buildings were being built, those kind of projects helped create jobs. Look at the some of the highway work we are doing in and around Springfield MO, they are improving roads, allowing safer traveling and helping buisness move their goods easier. That infrastructure building has kept our unemployment rate in the mid 8's even when the national average was over 9. Look at the Castle Pipeline, don't know how much of that is public or private, a project that big has to have some public funding or at least imput, and how many jobs is that creating? Guess we aren't going to ever agree on that one.

    I agree on the saving side, maybe we should stop giving tax credits to businesses to make themselves bigger, they save up a certain amount of money for expansion and then ask for a loan if they want to go that way. Keep the government out of it? Just a thought, of course the next state over will offer those insentives.

    My sitting on cash statement is what I hear and read. Hey if they want to sit on it fine, I can understand them not spending it, that's their choice. It probably helps my 401K, but as I understand things (remember I am saying I and I'm not the smartest branch on this tree) until some hiring starts and businesses spend money (of course to make money as the old saying goes) the country is not going to start moving forward. My opinion.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  28. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/5/2012 12:01 PM
    John Kauffman said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Now when you want to talk about the government telling me how to spend my extra $30 bucks, they kind of did that today when gas prices jumped 28 cents a gallon because as I understand it they didn't extend the subsides to ethanol, guess the oil companies are going to get theirs any way they look at it, I guess this would be for another debate, but would it be better for the economy for the government to subsidies some things?

    Mel


    This is a whole different subject. First, all subsidies are bad because they hide important information from the market. Markets are driven by information. Without accurate information conveyed by price, there's no possible way for producers or consumers to make wise decisions.

    Second, they didn't tell you how to spend your $30. You have the choice to buy gasoline or not.

    Third, "The oil companies are going to get theirs?" Do you expect everyone to sell something to you at a loss, simply because you want it? Do you take the lowest paying job, simply because your boss wants to get the best deal he can? I didn't think so. If it's not your gasoline before you pump it, you have no right to tell the guy who does own it what he should be allowed to make from it.


    Disagree John, If I wanted to get to work and drive my kid to band practice tonight I needed to spend that $30 on gas. Unless we want to hump all over riding a bike, maybe I can do it, it's just six miles, but my son getting to school on a bike, no way would I let him ride over those busy roads, no bus service out to us, I guess I could drive him half way but the way our bus system works, it won't work. Or I keep my kid home because we don't get involved in those things and he doesn't really function well in the outside world because he hasn't interacted and learned to work as a team and learned from real world lessons.

    Sorry I'm going to yell here: I NEVER EXPECT SOMEONE TO SELL ME SOMETHING AT A LOSS! I KNOW I HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL SOME GUY WHAT HE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO MAKE FROM SOMETHING HE SELLS AND OWNS. Maybe I, in my joking way stated the obvious, that the company was going to get their profits from us one way or another, either through the subsides or from the end user. That is not wrong, that is what they are in business to do. But that is one industry that can really effect the overall economy with their prices. Question is, 1 billion profit good, how about $750 million instead? We keep our prices resonable and keep people driving. Effects taxes local, state, and federal when use goes down, (I know here in MO it hurts our ability to rebuild roads and bridges). But hey that is their decision.

    I guess the question begs to be asked, and that is why I started another post on this topic, are subsides good or not. Short sightedness says no, how many of the little guys get that oportunity? But in a bigger picture, does subsidizing ethonal help the farmers grow more corn? Or does it hurt us in the grocery store because corn prices are high because of the demand for ethonal drives the feed prices up for livestock? That is for another topic and time.
    (on a side note, I think the spell check is messed up, IT can you help? Or maybe I log off and then back on?)
    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  29. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    1/6/2012 9:01 AM
    A word of caution: I'm going to tie responses to two posts into one post and I'm going to try to be brief, so this may not read as planned. I'm not usually good at being short-winded 

    1) Definition of "entitlements" by Paul Johnson, political science professor at Auburn University:

    The kind of government program that provides individuals with personal financial benefits (or sometimes special government-provided goods or services) to which potential beneficiaries have a legal right (enforceable in court, if necessary) whenever they meet eligibility conditions that are specified by the standing law that authorizes the program.

    Thus, SS and Medicare are entitlements. Their payment does not matter, as all entitlements are paid into in some form. You do not pay directly into SS or Medicare (as many people think), but it is a complex accounting that would make my post less brief. :)

    2) Already tried infrastructure work with first two stimuli. Did not deliver desired impact. President even admitted failure.

    3) Taxing employers more removes assets from production. Less production means fewer jobs.

    4) You're right – you do have to spend money to make money. But, spending money does not necessarily beget more money. Politicians seem to be very naïve, clueless, and showcase their oversimplified thought process in that regard.
    ****************************
    5) You don't have to buy anything if you don't want to – its all a choice. You could choose to live close enough to work that you can walk – you may have to live in a refrigerator box to do it, but you can make that choice. The reason you don't is that you value some things more than living that close to work. But, that is your value judgment – we can't expect others to alter their behavior or relinquish their assets or freedom on the basis of your decisions.

    6) If $1 BB is good, is $750 MM OK? How about this: If your current salary of good, why don't you take only 75% of it? Or maybe this: 48 of 50 state employee retirement plans own ExxonMobil stock. What do we say to the teachers, policemen, and firemen who can't afford to pay their bills in retirement because you wanted lower profits, which don't translate to cheaper gas?

    Consider that only 3% of ExxonMobil's profits are made from US gasoline sales -- $30 MM is a LOT lower than $750 MM . Consider also that ExxonMobil profits about $0.02 from each gallon of gasoline sold in the US, while the average state gasoline tax is $0.48/gal.

    7) I'll post my subsidy thoughts in the other thread, but maybe we can chew on this: subsidies alter the free market and hide numerous factors about price, such as scarcity, quality, capacity, and demand. Much like health insurance, subsidies hide information about the best quality products, the best providers, and the most cost efficient. AND, you're also paying for the subsidy through taxes.

    I hope I kept it short enough :)



  30. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/6/2012 10:01 AM
    John Kauffman said: A word of caution: I'm going to tie responses to two posts into one post and I'm going to try to be brief, so this may not read as planned. I'm not usually good at being short-winded 

    1) Definition of "entitlements" by Paul Johnson, political science professor at Auburn University:

    The kind of government program that provides individuals with personal financial benefits (or sometimes special government-provided goods or services) to which potential beneficiaries have a legal right (enforceable in court, if necessary) whenever they meet eligibility conditions that are specified by the standing law that authorizes the program. That is Mr. Johnsons definition, and that is fine, if you want to call SS and Medicare an entitlement, you can, I choose to look at it a little differently, but I suppose if I look at other entitlements, like unemployment, we did contribute to that through our payroll, (maybe that's just our employers that contribute, not sure) food stamps, I suppose we contribute to that through our taxes, and they are "earned" so to speak when people have certain income levels, so ok you've got me there.

    Thus, SS and Medicare are entitlements. Their payment does not matter, as all entitlements are paid into in some form. You do not pay directly into SS or Medicare (as many people think), but it is a complex accounting that would make my post less brief. :)

    2) Already tried infrastructure work with first two stimuli. Did not deliver desired impact. President even admitted failure. From what I understand, they did keep some people from losing jobs, from what I also understand, the stimulii's where not big enough, the other opinion I offer is some of the stiimulus spending did not go to intrastructure spending, so some of that failure I would contribute to that. As far as my opinion on infrastructure, it should not be done in a stimulus manner, it should be continues projects, just like on our golf courses, we make continues improvements, or rebuild areas that need to be done.

    3) Taxing employers more removes assets from production. Less production means fewer jobs. I can see some of that point, but if demand is high, revenue is going to push production, possibly leading to more jobs, maybe because of incentives for hireing, I guess my question is, do you tax to improve infrastructe to better move product and increase productivity? (might depend on the product), or do you give incentives for hireing and end up taking in less revenue? Giving incentives sounds warm and fuzzy, but maybe not doing that and lowering tax rates, might still do the job of providing for the government to do what the government is suppose to be doing. I guess my question is do we not tax employers, can we get enough revenues off the citizens to run the goverment?

    4) You're right – you do have to spend money to make money. But, spending money does not necessarily beget more money. Politicians seem to be very naïve, clueless, and showcase their oversimplified thought process in that regard. I can certainly agree with you there, and because laws, taxes, etc. are so complecated, how are our citizen (tounge in cheeck) lawmakers suppose to know what is best? Of course the lobbist will educate them
    ****************************
    5) You don't have to buy anything if you don't want to – its all a choice. You could choose to live close enough to work that you can walk – you may have to live in a refrigerator box to do it, but you can make that choice. The reason you don't is that you value some things more than living that close to work. But, that is your value judgment – we can't expect others to alter their behavior or relinquish their assets or freedom on the basis of your decisions. You are certainly correct, but because things change like gas prices, utilities, taxes, ect, after one has made the choice of where they live, it isn't so easy to make another choice to change that location, heck even with cable TV, they are switching to all digital, either we get the free box to convert our 13 and 20 year old tv's and then pay rent on those boxes, or buy new ones, (hey we have done our part for the economy) Heck even at this point in my life with my son a freshman in high school, because of the school he goes to and the activities he is involved in, I will not make a move for twice the money, but you are right, it's all choices, but doesn't mean we can't vent.

    6) If $1 BB is good, is $750 MM OK? How about this: If your current salary of good, why don't you take only 75% of it? Or maybe this: 48 of 50 state employee retirement plans own ExxonMobil stock. What do we say to the teachers, policemen, and firemen who can't afford to pay their bills in retirement because you wanted lower profits, which don't translate to cheaper gas? Heck I'm already working for 75% of the normal salary of superintendents in Missouri, (venting again)....I agree maybe it's great that ExxonMobil is making all of that profit, because we all own stock through our retirement plans, kind of like a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of deal, too many things are tied to each other, certainly not making anything simple to fix. But in my comments, the question is, in order to make those kind of profits, raising gas prices like they do certainly does effect the economy, which in the long run isn't that good for the long term of the over all economy. Long term, did a company hurt itself by hurting the economy around them? Maybe oil it doesn't because eventully that runs out, and something else will be running our engines, making a product like tv's could be totally different, heck I hear this year they aren't making any money on their selling of tv's this year because they had to cut the prices to get us to buy them.

    Consider that only 3% of ExxonMobil's profits are made from US gasoline sales -- $30 MM is a LOT lower than $750 MM . Consider also that ExxonMobil profits about $0.02 from each gallon of gasoline sold in the US, while the average state gasoline tax is $0.48/gal. Then why does a price rise $.28 cents per gallon? That is certainly more then .02 cents, you'll need to educate me on that one, as far as the gas taxes, I know in our state it is required to go to mainaining our roads and bridges, funny with the higher gas prices not as much gas is being sold, which means lower tax revenues, less repairs, more unemployment. I don't have much of a problem with our state sales tax, I have budgeted for it, and I know it is being used to improve the roads I use.

    7) I'll post my subsidy thoughts in the other thread, but maybe we can chew on this: subsidies alter the free market and hide numerous factors about price, such as scarcity, quality, capacity, and demand. Much like health insurance, subsidies hide information about the best quality products, the best providers, and the most cost efficient. AND, you're also paying for the subsidy through taxes.

    I hope I kept it short enough :)


    My spell check is screwing up again, so please don't hammer my spelling, Jeffy you can get me on my grammer though.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

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