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pgr apps

34 posts
  1. Chase Best
    Chase Best avatar
    0 posts
    7/25/2012 9:07 PM
    I am learning something every year with this job guys. I used primo/trimmit togather to regulate my greens and i love it. The more I read about this 200 gdd in regards to pgrs makes me realize that I might need to tighten my intervals in the summer? Based on averages we are getting to 200 in about 4 to 6 days with primo and getting to 350 in about 8-10 days for trimmit. I usually have my spray programs set up to go out every 14 days. Should I be going out every 10 with my PGR app? From my understanding, rates were not effective in making the pgr last any longer. Thoughts?

    Chase Best
    Old Capital Golf Club



  2. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    7/26/2012 4:07 AM
    The 200 degree thing works perfectly with Primo but I have no idea when it comes to Trimmit. Maybe you Primo based on the model and do your Trimmit every other time. My understanding is that Trimmit has a longer residual. Mel will pipe in. He has a better understanding than I do



  3. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/26/2012 8:07 AM
    Larry Allan said: The 200 degree thing works perfectly with Primo but I have no idea when it comes to Trimmit. Maybe you Primo based on the model and do your Trimmit every other time. My understanding is that Trimmit has a longer residual. Mel will pipe in. He has a better understanding than I do


    Boy that is a scary thought.

    I have seen my 200 gdd run as short as 6 days, I used to be the two week application person too. I only use Primo though not Trimmit, so I can't help you with that. I will say that the 200 gdd program is spot on, if I miss an app by a day, I can really tell with the surge of growth, it is that noticeable, now that I know about it. Back in Northern Indiana when we sprayed at 14 days I didn't notice it, but we would only have a few days in the 90's on occasion.

    I have really tightened up my Primo applications, I have also changed my fungicide programs to a degree, I will still use the same products, but find myself going at the lowest rates, also have cut my foliar fertilizer applications in half as well.

    I will attach the excel spreadsheet I use, I use the min/max for Primo page, there is also a Mean temperature page to try, I also noticed a Trimmit tab so you might want to play with that.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  4. Chase Best
    Chase Best avatar
    0 posts
    7/26/2012 10:07 AM
    Thanks a lot I will look at the sheet tonight. I remember reading a publication from Wisconsin that Trimmit might be at 350. Still this year has made me wonder about tightening up my primo apps. I love Trimmit, it really helps choke out what poa I have. Thanks guys

    Chase Best
    Old Capital Golf Club



  5. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    7/26/2012 11:07 AM
    Chase Best said: Thanks a lot I will look at the sheet tonight. I remember reading a publication from Wisconsin that Trimmit might be at 350. Still this year has made me wonder about tightening up my primo apps. I love Trimmit, it really helps choke out what poa I have. Thanks guys

    Chase Best
    Old Capital Golf Club

    It looks like Mels chart has Trimmit at about 326 GDDs so I would go with that. Mel's a genius. Now I have to buy a F' ing thermometer so his program can convert me back to C



  6. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    113 posts
    7/26/2012 2:07 PM
    Ok this is all new to me. I have been using primo on my greens for13 years spraying about every 3 weeks. what is a GDD?



  7. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/26/2012 3:07 PM
    James Smith said: Ok this is all new to me. I have been using primo on my greens for13 years spraying about every 3 weeks. what is a GDD?


    Randini,

    Even though I've got Red fooled, I'll throw my 2 cents in and guess the answer your question. GDD is "Growing Degree Days" It's some mumbo jumbo of taking the high and low temperatures or average temperature and assigning it a number. (I know it's used to track poa seedhead development, and in some cases when to apply pre-emergent herbicides and I think it's used a lot in agriculture). When those numbers add up to 200 as for Primo, the Primo stops working and one gets a growth spurt. It continues to have a growth spurt until more Primo can be applied. The bad deal when the grass breaks free from the Primo, in the summer anyway, the plant needs a ton of carbs for the growth and that will come from the weak root system already hammered because of the summer. The research shows that one is actually better off not using Primo as the growth of the greens are consistent without Primo. (of course there are the other benefits of Primo so I know I will continue to use it, I'm just making sure to stay in my application windows.)

    The studies as I understand were conducted at Wisconsin, and the Primo only affected bent grass mowed at greens height. Cool season grasses at tee and fairway height one would just continues to follow the label, it's not affected by GDD's.

    As far as warm season grasses, tee and fairway height it is follow the label there as well. As far as warm season greens, I think the label rate is good with that, but I would bet my life on it.

    The Growing Degree Days deal only affects greens height cool season grasses I believe.

    Red, picked up a Min/Max thermometer from Forestry Supply for pretty cheap (well under $50) it will record up to 5 or 6 days worth of reading, and it will do it in F and C.....funny it always resets to C, too bad the chart couldn't be converted to C. I'm wanting to get a weather station like Andy has but I hate spending the little over $100 for it.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  8. Timothy Day
    Timothy Day avatar
    0 posts
    7/27/2012 7:07 AM
    Chase,

    What are your rates?

    Tim



  9. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    113 posts
    7/27/2012 10:07 AM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    James Smith said: Ok this is all new to me. I have been using primo on my greens for13 years spraying about every 3 weeks. what is a GDD?


    Randini,

    Even though I've got Red fooled, I'll throw my 2 cents in and guess the answer your question. GDD is "Growing Degree Days" It's some mumbo jumbo of taking the high and low temperatures or average temperature and assigning it a number. (I know it's used to track poa seedhead development, and in some cases when to apply pre-emergent herbicides and I think it's used a lot in agriculture). When those numbers add up to 200 as for Primo, the Primo stops working and one gets a growth spurt. It continues to have a growth spurt until more Primo can be applied. The bad deal when the grass breaks free from the Primo, in the summer anyway, the plant needs a ton of carbs for the growth and that will come from the weak root system already hammered because of the summer. The research shows that one is actually better off not using Primo as the growth of the greens are consistent without Primo. (of course there are the other benefits of Primo so I know I will continue to use it, I'm just making sure to stay in my application windows.)

    The studies as I understand were conducted at Wisconsin, and the Primo only affected bent grass mowed at greens height. Cool season grasses at tee and fairway height one would just continues to follow the label, it's not affected by GDD's.

    As far as warm season grasses, tee and fairway height it is follow the label there as well. As far as warm season greens, I think the label rate is good with that, but I would bet my life on it.

    The Growing Degree Days deal only affects greens height cool season grasses I believe.

    Red, picked up a Min/Max thermometer from Forestry Supply for pretty cheap (well under $50) it will record up to 5 or 6 days worth of reading, and it will do it in F and C.....funny it always resets to C, too bad the chart couldn't be converted to C. I'm wanting to get a weather station like Andy has but I hate spending the little over $100 for it.

    Mel

    Thanks for clearing this up for me Mel. And I must admit that you done a first class job of explaining it. One of the smartest post on this board in years to be honest but I am sure some smart arse will come along and try to taint it.



  10. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/27/2012 12:07 PM
    James Smith said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    James Smith said: Ok this is all new to me. I have been using primo on my greens for13 years spraying about every 3 weeks. what is a GDD?


    Randini,

    Even though I've got Red fooled, I'll throw my 2 cents in and guess the answer your question. GDD is "Growing Degree Days" It's some mumbo jumbo of taking the high and low temperatures or average temperature and assigning it a number. (I know it's used to track poa seedhead development, and in some cases when to apply pre-emergent herbicides and I think it's used a lot in agriculture). When those numbers add up to 200 as for Primo, the Primo stops working and one gets a growth spurt. It continues to have a growth spurt until more Primo can be applied. The bad deal when the grass breaks free from the Primo, in the summer anyway, the plant needs a ton of carbs for the growth and that will come from the weak root system already hammered because of the summer. The research shows that one is actually better off not using Primo as the growth of the greens are consistent without Primo. (of course there are the other benefits of Primo so I know I will continue to use it, I'm just making sure to stay in my application windows.)

    The studies as I understand were conducted at Wisconsin, and the Primo only affected bent grass mowed at greens height. Cool season grasses at tee and fairway height one would just continues to follow the label, it's not affected by GDD's.

    As far as warm season grasses, tee and fairway height it is follow the label there as well. As far as warm season greens, I think the label rate is good with that, but I would bet my life on it.

    The Growing Degree Days deal only affects greens height cool season grasses I believe.

    Red, picked up a Min/Max thermometer from Forestry Supply for pretty cheap (well under $50) it will record up to 5 or 6 days worth of reading, and it will do it in F and C.....funny it always resets to C, too bad the chart couldn't be converted to C. I'm wanting to get a weather station like Andy has but I hate spending the little over $100 for it.

    Mel

    Thanks for clearing this up for me Mel. And I must admit that you done a first class job of explaining it. One of the smartest post on this board in years to be honest but I am sure some smart arse will come along and try to taint it.


    Thanks, unfortunately it will probably be me somehow.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  11. Chase Best
    Chase Best avatar
    0 posts
    7/27/2012 11:07 PM
    Mel, thnks for the calculator. great tool to use. only question. the cumlative gdd has me confused. on the mean temp tab my first day says 0. But when I am on the min and max tab it has a number. example. 28.9

    primo
    max air 98 min air 70 daily gdd 28.9 cumlative 0

    mean 83.8 daily gdd 28.8 cumlative 28.8


    trimmit
    max air 98 min air 70 daily gdd 28.9 cumlative 0

    mean 83.8 daily gdd 28.9 cumlative 0

    can you clear that up for me? i dont understand why the max and min tab has a cumlative of 0 and the mean one has cumlative at 28.8 after day 1


    Chase Best



  12. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    7/28/2012 4:07 AM
    Chase Best said: Mel, thnks for the calculator. great tool to use. only question. the cumlative gdd has me confused. on the mean temp tab my first day says 0. But when I am on the min and max tab it has a number. example. 28.9

    primo
    max air 98 min air 70 daily gdd 28.9 cumlative 0

    mean 83.8 daily gdd 28.8 cumlative 28.8


    trimmit
    max air 98 min air 70 daily gdd 28.9 cumlative 0

    mean 83.8 daily gdd 28.9 cumlative 0

    can you clear that up for me? i dont understand why the max and min tab has a cumlative of 0 and the mean one has cumlative at 28.8 after day 1


    Chase Best

    Chad, if you punch in the Fahrenheit temperature for day 1 in the column it automatically converts it to Celsius in the GDD column. Then punch in the F temperature for day two and so on. Once the GDD add up to 200 the message appears...reapply Primo. Play with it by just randomly plugging in day time highs for about 7 or 8 day and you will see it happen. The sheet is non destructive so play with it and then once comfortable revert your entries to zero and start for real



  13. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/28/2012 8:07 AM
    Larry Allan said:
    Chase Best said: Mel, thnks for the calculator. great tool to use. only question. the cumlative gdd has me confused. on the mean temp tab my first day says 0. But when I am on the min and max tab it has a number. example. 28.9

    primo
    max air 98 min air 70 daily gdd 28.9 cumlative 0

    mean 83.8 daily gdd 28.8 cumlative 28.8


    trimmit
    max air 98 min air 70 daily gdd 28.9 cumlative 0

    mean 83.8 daily gdd 28.9 cumlative 0

    can you clear that up for me? i dont understand why the max and min tab has a cumlative of 0 and the mean one has cumlative at 28.8 after day 1


    Chase Best

    Chad, if you punch in the Fahrenheit temperature for day 1 in the column it automatically converts it to Celsius in the GDD column. Then punch in the F temperature for day two and so on. Once the GDD add up to 200 the message appears...reapply Primo. Play with it by just randomly plugging in day time highs for about 7 or 8 day and you will see it happen. The sheet is non destructive so play with it and then once comfortable revert your entries to zero and start for real


    Chad quick question did you post those numbers in the April 15 on the chart? I just tried it with the numbers you gave and did not see the cumlative change from 0 either, when I punched in the same numbers on the April 16 tab then it gave me a cumlative total of like 57.6. So it appears that very first cell in the cumlative column does not have a math function in it.

    I also started at yesterday's date 7/27/12 and punched your numbers in, it gave me the 28.8 for GDD and also in the cumulative column, so I think that is what you are seeing is just that first cumulative column in the Primo Min-Max sheet doesn't have that math function in it. Hopefully that is the problem you are seeing?

    I will also tell you it seems to work even when you plug in the Min temp in the Max column and the Max temp in the MIn column like I did last year, just wasn't paying attention to the column titles and on my weather sheet I always put the Min on the left and the Max temp on the right.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  14. Michael Posey
    Michael Posey avatar
    0 posts
    7/28/2012 10:07 AM
    From my reading, it looks like this is based on a .125/M label rate. They tested higher rates and showed no added regulation spraying a higher rate, but did find additional regulation by spraying the .125 rate more often. Looks like they found that there is so little surface area on a putting green height bentgrass that there is a limit as to how much Primo can enter the plant. Is .125/M the rate everyone is using or are you using more / less?



  15. Chase Best
    Chase Best avatar
    0 posts
    7/28/2012 11:07 AM
    Mel, yes that is what I am seeing. Didn't know if it affects my reapply days?



  16. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/28/2012 1:07 PM
    Chase, I just checked this year's (my log) and also played with the template, it shouldn't affect your reapplications unless your really stretching it. I started taking readings on April 15th and made my first application of Primo on the 17th, it just restarted the countdown so to speak.

    When I plugged in some fake numbers in the template, it didn't add up the first day to the other dates, but chances are depending on your location you would probably have some Primo in a tank mix anyway and would have the countdown start when you made your Primo application. (hopefully you get what I'm saying.)

    Mike, you are correct on as what I understand, that more Primo per application is not going to give you longer control. Once you hit the 200 GDD, the Primo is done. Now what has me thinking is, and it seems to work. The label rate for bent is .125 per1000 sq. ft. that is per month, so when I have been putting it out every two weeks in the past, I go at the .062 rate, which would be .125 per month. Should I be putting .125 per application? The .062 has always seemed to work for me, but of course I mow at .156, I do use more irrigation here in the transition zone compared to Northern Indiana when I first discovered Primo. Just goes to show we can't sit still we have more to learn.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  17. Michael Posey
    Michael Posey avatar
    0 posts
    7/28/2012 6:07 PM
    I agree. Definitely more to learn! From what I read it sounds to me like we should be using the .125. I was going half that weekly, so I wasn't far off. It does sound like their future research is going to concentrate on lower rates. The greens they tested it on were mowed at .125. I would love to have a bermudagrass fairway model. I might just start trying to keep up with it and see if I can figure it out.



  18. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    7/28/2012 8:07 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Chad quick question did you post those numbers in the April 15 on the chart? I just tried it with the numbers you gave and did not see the cumulative change from 0 either, when I punched in the same numbers on the April 16 tab then it gave me a cumulative total of like 57.6. So it appears that very first cell in the cumulative column does not have a math function in it.

    Mel


    Mel,

    I don't have Excel loaded on my new laptop yet, but if I'm understanding the problem correctly, you can copy a cell and paste it either up or down. The formula will follow and Excel will recognize what you're trying to do and automatically change the formula with new row numbers. Unless that cell is for some reason protected, which I can't imagine it would be. If I could open it, I would check it out. But you obviously know Excel, so you might try that. Have fun.

    Jeff



  19. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/29/2012 8:07 PM
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Chad quick question did you post those numbers in the April 15 on the chart? I just tried it with the numbers you gave and did not see the cumulative change from 0 either, when I punched in the same numbers on the April 16 tab then it gave me a cumulative total of like 57.6. So it appears that very first cell in the cumulative column does not have a math function in it.

    Mel


    Mel,

    I don't have Excel loaded on my new laptop yet, but if I'm understanding the problem correctly, you can copy a cell and paste it either up or down. The formula will follow and Excel will recognize what you're trying to do and automatically change the formula with new row numbers. Unless that cell is for some reason protected, which I can't imagine it would be. If I could open it, I would check it out. But you obviously know Excel, so you might try that. Have fun.

    Jeff


    Jeff, I don''t know excel that well. If I was any good with excel, I would have information that I enter on one page and it would get entered on another page, (budget tracking stuff). As far as the GDD chart, I checked, there is no math function in the first cell, I copied and tried to paste but it is write protected.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  20. Michael Posey
    Michael Posey avatar
    0 posts
    7/29/2012 8:07 PM
    Mel... If you look on the first page of the notebook it gives you the code to unlock it. uwturfgrass. Go to file, then permissions unlock each page, then save and you can do all the damage you want! I have a love hate relationship with excel.



  21. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    7/30/2012 1:07 AM
    Mel,

    Linking to another workbook is not "that" difficult, but if I remember correctly, you can't copy formulas, only values to another book. Then you get into another process of "linking" workbooks. And formatting the other books as well. But hey, once it's all done.....you're sailing.

    Once I buy my new version of Office, I'll give you a call and try and walk you through it. I was waiting for Office 2013, expecting it to come out this year, but now it looks like it will be next year. So I'll being buying 2010. Right now I'm still using the minimal Starter Edition that came with the laptop, just so I can use Word.

    But...sounds like Mike figured out the problem anyway. I can't see the spreadsheet, so I have no idea how it's laid out. Why they would password protect one row of cells, if it is a row, is beyond me, but at least you can now unlock the pages. I'm doing this from memory, because I can't open the file, but whatever page he told you to go to, go there. To at least see why they protected it, if in fact they explain it. But he did post the password.

    Mike, thanks for the info for everyone else. And yeah.....I have a love hate relationship with Excel as well. I cut my spreadsheet teeth on Lotus 1-2-3, and the transition was pretty confusing.

    Jeff



  22. James Gubricky
    James Gubricky avatar
    0 posts
    7/30/2012 8:07 AM
    We use Primo on Pasaplum greens in the tropics. I attended the PGR seminar at the golf conference (not realizing the emphasis was on using PGR's to control Poa). The main thing I came away with was the connection between Primo and GDD.

    When I first began using Primo, I played around with different rates and app intervals.

    We found that adjusting the application interval from 7 days(during peak growing season) to 10 days to 14 days (during the slower growing season) yielded pretty consistent results for us. We put out roughly the same amount of Primo (approx 8.5oz/A) on a monthly basis, which is split in either 2, 3 or 4 apps depending on the growing season.

    We recently aerified our greens and discontinued the Primo the week before and after the aerification. Upon resuming the Primo apps after a 3 week break, I noticed a definite increase in the effectiveness of the Primo, so much so that I am thinking of dialing back the Primo rate a little when we spray tomorrow.



  23. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/30/2012 9:07 AM
    Michael Posey said: Mel... If you look on the first page of the notebook it gives you the code to unlock it. uwturfgrass. Go to file, then permissions unlock each page, then save and you can do all the damage you want! I have a love hate relationship with excel.


    Thanks Mike,

    In order to not do damage, I think I will leave it alone, I will always have a Primo application during that early window anyway.

    Jeff,

    I remember taking an excel class by our city's training staff. There were ways to, I think hyperlink stuff between either workbooks or pages of work books. Never had a chance to practice it and get used to it (next time I need to take the class in the winter when I have time to practice it).

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  24. Michael Posey
    Michael Posey avatar
    0 posts
    7/30/2012 10:07 AM
    Jeffrey... Send me an email with your address and I will put a copy of Office 2010 in the mail for you. mike_posey at hotmail dot com.



  25. Lisa Wick
    Lisa Wick avatar
    1 posts
    7/30/2012 1:07 PM
    First of all - wow!
    Lots of great details in this thread, especially Mel's recap of GDDs. The title was on the homepage when I was looking for something else and I thought I'd let you all know there is an On Demand webcast that Erik Ervin, Ph.D., taught for us last year that covers some of the science behind all this - some of the research mentioned. You can find it here:
    http://www.gcsaa.org/Education/Webcasts ... tions.aspx
    I am not very good with Excel either but my friend, Tracy Adair Derning, is and we still have a couple of webcasts that she taught for us, one of which covers the linking of cells from one sheet to another as was mentioned.
    You can find that here:
    http://www.gcsaa.org/Education/Webcasts ... Excel.aspx
    Please remember all webcasts are now available to members for no additional charge.
    I hope these are helpful. Lisa Wick

    Lisa Wick, sr. manager, e-Learning Programs

  26. Michael Posey
    Michael Posey avatar
    0 posts
    7/30/2012 4:07 PM
    Thanks Lisa. Hopefully winter comes early and I can catch up on some webcasts.



  27. Lenik Brian
    Lenik Brian avatar
    8/1/2012 6:08 PM
    Does anyone have any info on what rate the trimmit GDD calculator is based on?



  28. Hansen Eric R
    Hansen Eric R avatar
    8/3/2012 8:08 AM
    To those of you spraying combo Primo/Trimmit apps and tracking GDD…

    Do you spray based on when your primo GDD's or Trimmit GDD's are up? Or do you spray the two pgr's individually based on their own GDD's? And of course, what are your rates?

    BTW I've been applying only Primo and using GDD tracker and it is spot on.



  29. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/27/2012 6:08 AM
    Even though we hashed out this topic pretty good, just read last night in this month's GCM an article on the research, and thought I would send this topic back to the top of the thread. It I believed answered a lot of the questions with hard facts instead of relying on someone like me to remember his notes. Interesting that it talked about temperature recording in C, I think they did that just for Red.

    As Mike said in an earlier post the research used .125 oz and .250 oz in the research, looks like I might be bumping mine rate up to that per application in the future instead of the .062 per application. I do see regulation, but as the article stated they saw different rates of regulation with the two rates they used (and clipping yield), so I'm sure I am seeing some regulation but probably not as much as if I went out at .125 oz. rate. Guess I'm going to have to break down next year and get that second bottle of Primo.

    Thanks GCM for the article (starts on page 80).

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  30. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    8/27/2012 8:08 AM
    Mel, I haven't had a chance to read everything yet but was the research limited to greens height or does the same model work for tee and fairway height?



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