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1. Wahlin Scott B

   
   9/15/2011 3:09 PM

   I can understand why people do not believe in God. I can think of hundreds of reasons why people would not believe in God and would become upset with anyone who would broach the subject with them in an attempt to change their beliefs. I have the benefit that my parents were not religious and I came to believe later in life. My testimony includes experiences where I could not conclude any other possibility. I can understand the strong responses to my previous posts, but I was not trying to impress anyone or be condescending. Having been a non-believer for so many years of my life, I think I can relate to that position. This is just one (I believe recent) example of why I believe people pull away.
   
   [youtube">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDWUGD2A8XI[/youtube">

   
   
   
   
2. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   9/15/2011 5:09 PM

   Honestly, why don't you keep your religion to yourself?
   
   Regards,
   
   Steve

   
   
   
   
3. Wahlin Scott B

   
   9/15/2011 7:09 PM

   huff said: Honestly, why don't you keep your religion to yourself?
   
   Regards,
   
   Steve

   
   
   You sneeze in public and some unsuspecting believer says, "God Bless You", how do you react?

   
   
   
   
4. Clay Putnam

   

   33 posts
   
   9/15/2011 8:09 PM

   I look at religious post sorta like rooting for your team. Ya know, like cheering on your favorite football team; [b]STEELERS[b]. I don't mind if someone wears their favorite team jersey/WWJD shirt or makes a post about an awesome play or proverb. I draw the line when they get obnoxious and start throwing beer, holy water, or RPG cause I don't like their team.

   
   
   
   
5. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   9/16/2011 4:09 AM

   I just don't understand the need for this constant show of religious fervor.

   
   
   
   
6. Larry Allan

   

   0 posts
   
   9/16/2011 6:09 AM

   Scotty, Keep it up. I love seeing Stevie riled.
   
   I find your statement that you witnessed something and could not conclude any other possibility somewhat absurd.
   
   I was hiking up Mount Kenya years ago with couple of people I didn't know. I started telling them about an interesting article I had read in an airline magazine. Turned out her father, a famous Canadian Environmentalist had written the article. I call it a coincidence, but maybe my brain was triggered to bring up the subject because I saw something in her facial features that reminded me of her father. Maybe god triggered the conversation. I really don't know and don't care. It was kinda spooky. It taught me that there are always alternative explanations for what otherwise could be considered some sort of "divinity"

   
   
   
   
7. Wahlin Scott B

   
   9/16/2011 10:09 AM

   Red, You consider belief in God to be absurd. So it goes without saying that you would consider my opinion of my experience, which I did not describe as being absurd.

   
   
   
   
8. Kauffman John M

   
   9/16/2011 11:09 AM

   When I listen to the folks on NBC/ABC/CBS, they make Christian sound like a bad thing. They also tie it in with Republican, and make that (and their combination) sound like a bad thing. Then, we see that things aren't always like the way they report it on the news (I don't think Scott is a Republican, but he is a Christian).
   
   Can't win 'em all, I guess ....

   
   
   
   
9. Larry Allan

   

   0 posts
   
   9/16/2011 3:09 PM

   wahlins said: Red, You consider belief in God to be absurd. So it goes without saying that you would consider my opinion of my experience, which I did not describe as being absurd.

   
   
   OK maybe absurd was not the exact word I should have used but in just about all cases there is, if one looks, a reasonable, rational explanation for what happened. It might in some cases just be easier to say it was the Lord than to dig deeper and find the real reason
   
   Lots of people believe firmly in Alien Abductions. Even if I had that experience, I would pretty much write it off to a bad dream or some sort of mental illness, no matter how real to me it seemed.
   
   People wake up after being in a coma speaking fluent German so they assume they must have lived past lives. Maybe they did, but I would bet my bottom dollar that one day they will find something like DNA memory is the cause.
   
   Logic just won't allow me believe what you believe. I need to know what I know

   
   
   
   
10. Wahlin Scott B

    
    9/16/2011 5:09 PM

    I am a Christian and I am not a conservative Republican. I am a Christian and I studied sciences in college. I am a Christian and I am not willing to turn my back on 98% of environmental scientists. I am a Christian and I can go with evolution. I am a Christian and I do not think you are going to Hell because you tell me you are not a Christian. I am a Christian and I think there is beer and golf in Heaven. I am a Christian and I do not think we should cheer when a governor boasts about how many people he has executed. I am a Christian and I think gay people with good hearts will go to Heaven. I am a Christian and I do not think you need to go to church to go to Heaven. I am a Christian and I realize there are well adjusted people who do not believe.
    
    I received an email with an article addressing the assumptions Christians have about non-believers. I agreed with the entire article except the one about combat soldiers not believing. I have no experience in this area except comments made to me by airborne combat veterans. My son sent me a Christmas picture of him with two other soldiers. They had dressed themselves in Christmas stuff that had been sent to them over all of their bullets, guns and "battle rattle" for the picture. They were getting ready to go out. Of course they took the Christmas stuff off before they went. Within hours, one was dead and one had been shot in the neck. My son was holding an artery in the neck of the one when the "bird" arrived. Enemy fire was heavy and the helicopter was able to remove dead and wounded safely. My son's unit prevailed, but that was not always clear. He told me that they all were praying and shooting.
    
    If you are offended by Christians, why?

    
    
    
    
11. Homme David R

    
    9/16/2011 8:09 PM

    I know many Christians and the ones that are most secure in themselves and in their faith, don't really bring it up.
    
    Scott, there is something weird about your eternal desire to preach over this forum.
    
    You have your beliefs, fine. Keep them close, but why stir the pot so much?
    
    You will not change others beliefs, only strengthen their disbeliefs with the constant preaching. That's a fact.
    
    Dave Homme
    Falls Resort

    
    
    
    
12. Peter Bowman

    

    11 posts
    
    9/16/2011 8:09 PM

    wahlins said: I am a Christian and I think there is beer and golf in Heaven.

    
    
    OK, where do I apply?

    
    
    
    
13. Larry Allan

    

    0 posts
    
    9/17/2011 6:09 AM

    wahlins said: I am a Christian and I am not a conservative Republican. I am a Christian and I studied sciences in college. I am a Christian and I am not willing to turn my back on 98% of environmental scientists. I am a Christian and I can go with evolution. I am a Christian and I do not think you are going to Hell because you tell me you are not a Christian. I am a Christian and I think there is beer and golf in Heaven. I am a Christian and I do not think we should cheer when a governor boasts about how many people he has executed. I am a Christian and I think gay people with good hearts will go to Heaven. I am a Christian and I do not think you need to go to church to go to Heaven. I am a Christian and I realize there are well adjusted people who do not believe.
    
    I received an email with an article addressing the assumptions Christians have about non-believers. I agreed with the entire article except the one about combat soldiers not believing. I have no experience in this area except comments made to me by airborne combat veterans. My son sent me a Christmas picture of him with two other soldiers. They had dressed themselves in Christmas stuff that had been sent to them over all of their bullets, guns and "battle rattle" for the picture. They were getting ready to go out. Of course they took the Christmas stuff off before they went. Within hours, one was dead and one had been shot in the neck. My son was holding an artery in the neck of the one when the "bird" arrived. Enemy fire was heavy and the helicopter was able to remove dead and wounded safely. My son's unit prevailed, but that was not always clear. He told me that they all were praying and shooting.
    
    If you are offended by Christians, why?

    
    
    Scotty, I assume from your first paragraph that you are a Christian. You can assume from from my incessant rebuttals that I am an atheist. Neither of us is likely to change. As long as you post Christian related things on here, I will challenge them...That is just what we atheists like to do.
    Nothing personal whatsoever

    
    
    
    
14. Jeremy Hreben

    

    0 posts
    
    9/17/2011 6:09 AM

    I am a Christian, by birth. I am non-practicing. I am, however, spiritual. My beliefs are somewhat distorted. I believe in God but not the Bible. I am for gay marriage but against the death penalty(although i do feel prison should not be a country club). I personally do not believe abortion is right, but I also believe it is not my right to make that decision for a woman. I do not vote, so therefore I do not have the right to comdemn or approve of what the government does or does not do.
    
    My point: everyone has their beliefs. Why do I need to be classified as a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, pro-homosexual, anti-abortion, pro-life, WHATEVER! Leave everyone be with beliefs and stop worrying about what everyone else does.

    
    
    
    
15. Wahlin Scott B

    
    9/17/2011 7:09 AM

    If you won the lottery and learned a fool-proof way to win the lottery would you not want to tell those who matter to you?
    
    [youtube">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWTd3vnjZQE[/youtube">
    
    PS: You can be Jewish by birth, but you cannot be a Christian by birth.

    
    
    
    
16. Ronald Conard

    

    4 posts
    
    9/17/2011 8:09 AM

    Scott,
    
    I appreciate your concern but it still smacks of "I know I'm right, and I have to save you who are wrong."
    
    Proselytizing can be very destructive when it is directed at other cultures with their own beliefs and values and the outcome becomes the erosion of the long standing societal mortar. It rips families and culturals apart and why? What purpose does it serve? Because one group thinks they have it figured out, even though they are very ignorant of the beliefs of another?

    
    
    
    
17. Wahlin Scott B

    
    9/17/2011 9:09 AM

    I tried to communicate in my original premise that I understood some of the reasons why people could be upset by a Christian communicating their beliefs. There are Christian Religions, but Christianity is not a religion. You can get a Bible, read it and believe it and never go to church.
    
    [youtube">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3i-_VWxOAc[/youtube">

    
    
    
    
18. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    9/17/2011 11:09 AM

    So when I buy an imaginary lottery ticket and win a million imaginary dollars, i'ts ok for me to pester you endlessly with talk about my imaginary good fortune and insist that you buy an imaginary ticket, too?
    Is that it?
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
19. Peter Bowman

    

    11 posts
    
    9/17/2011 12:09 PM

    I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools through high school, and went to church every Sunday morning as a kid because my mom said we had to, then as a teenager because there were lots of hot chicks there. They were there because their moms said they had to go too. I should have thanked their moms for that. I hated it when they started hugging each other after one of the sermons, you know when the priest said the magic word and then everybody turns in all directions in their pew and hugs anyone within reach. That's when I really started hating to go to church. It wasn't bad until they started that. If I want to hug somebody I'll decide that on my own. But when everyone else is doing it, you can of feel stupid if you don't. They do that on purpose. God, I couldn't stand it. I stopped going to church after high school because I had my own car and I didn't really want to have to drive around with my parents anymore. I go to church now for a wedding or a funeral. I should start a church where hugging is banned. My collection baskets would be big, too.
    
    I never once read the Bible, not because I refused to, but because it was never part of any class I took through high school.
    
    My wife and I always told our three kids that if they ever decide on their own that they want to go to church we would be happy to take them and stay there with them. 30 years of no church or religion in the household, and now my oldest goes to church with his wife and two daughters. His wife told him to. Pretty soon my granddaughters will want to go to church beacause there are boys there. I know how that works.
    
    Please don't anyone ever try to convert me. Jahova's Wintnesses are not welcome at my door. No, I will not read the WatchTower even if you leave it for me when you let me be. Save a tree and stop printing those please.
    
    I'm a good person and I don't have religion.

    
    
    
    
20. Larry Allan

    

    0 posts
    
    9/17/2011 2:09 PM

    [attachment=0">napkin.jpg[/attachment">

    
    
    
    
21. Peter Bowman

    

    11 posts
    
    9/17/2011 5:09 PM

    Getting back to the Pat Robertson Alzheimers hing, I wonder if his wife Adelia Elmer Robertson thinks it's OK to divorce a spouse whose getting to be too stupid for his own good.

    
    
    
    
22. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    9/17/2011 7:09 PM

    Pat Robertson is certainly not alone in his religious hypocrisy. We tend to see religious zealots as mostly mildly annoying until they start flying planes into towers or killing Doctors that they don't agree with.

    
    
    
    
23. Sean Hoolehan

    

    0 posts
    
    9/20/2011 11:09 AM

    We all put our Faith in something even if it is nothing. I have never had a problem with a person who wants to believe they are a descendant of a Ape, Monkey, Bird or Fish, that is their right. There are plenty of Wacko atheists out there to go with the wacko Christens, Buddhists, Muslims, etc..
    
    When people line up extreme views as examples or proof of their argument it is a form of bigotry, and only displays their lack of understanding and fear of what they do not understand.
    
    I have seen some of the most amazing things visiting Alzheimer's patients over the years, and the grace granted to those who care for them.
    
    Sean

    
    
    
    
24. Sean Hoolehan

    

    0 posts
    
    9/20/2011 11:09 AM

    pbowman said: I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools through high school, and went to church every Sunday morning as a kid because my mom said we had to, then as a teenager because there were lots of hot chicks there. They were there because their moms said they had to go too. I should have thanked their moms for that. I hated it when they started hugging each other after one of the sermons, you know when the priest said the magic word and then everybody turns in all directions in their pew and hugs anyone within reach. Now not to shock you but Pope Benedict agrees with you on the hugging part of the Catholic Mass. It had clearly become a big distraction from the central reason of the Mass which is the Eucharist. Today a brief greeting of peace to your fellow participants (hand shake, wave or nod) is the preferred form. For more information on the Catholic church http://usccb.org/
    
    
    I'm a good person and I don't have religion.Good people come in all different forms, Religious, Atheist, Gay, Straight, Democrat, or Republican. Some times it just takes a little time to get to know them.

    
    Sean

    
    
    
    
25. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    9/20/2011 2:09 PM

    Your characterization of a "crazy" atheist strikes me as a little odd. So far as I know (I could be wrong), there are exactly ZERO incidents of atheists killing other atheist over religious or the lack of religious doctrine. There are exactly ZERO incidents of terrorism committed by atheists and the are exactly ZERO countries in the world that have atheism as a State religion whose failure to practice is punishable by death or otherwise.
    
    Your statement that we all put our faith in something is incorrect. Your use of the word "faith" implies belief in the supernatural and atheists, by definition, do not believe in the supernatural.
    
    When we see things we don't understand, it seems to be human nature to ascribe them to some supernatural force rather to to think it through and come to the conclusion that these things may be scientifically explained. It's much easier to just say "Goddidit" than to actually explain something we don't understand.
    
    Atheism is not an extreme view, if anything the belief in supernatural all powerful beings are extreme. Together, we probably both would agree that Baal, Thor, Athena, Krishna, Akambu and Shiva are not, in fact, gods. I just go one god further.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
26. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    9/20/2011 5:09 PM

    Isn't/wasn't China, the Soviet Union (Stalin), Germany (Hitler) atheist states?

    
    
    
    
27. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    9/20/2011 6:09 PM

    You are correct. Not about Hitler, though. Hitler was a Christian who planned to destroy Christianity after his rise to world power. Clearly a megolomaniac.
    "State atheism has been defined as the official "promotion of atheism" by a government, typically by active suppression of religious freedom and practice.
    State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practiced during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Since then, such a policy was repeated only in Revolutionary Mexico and some communist states. State atheism may include active opposition to religion, and persecution of religious institutions, leaders and believers. However, whether such persecution was truly motivated by atheism is disputed by others.
    The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism, in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism, stay away from churches and even vandalize them; this attitude was especially militant during the middle Stalinist era from 1929-1939. The Soviet Union attempted to suppress religion over wide areas of its influence, including places like central Asia. The Socialist People's Republic of Albania under Enver Hoxha went so far as to officially ban the practice of every religion."
    
    I should have qualified my statement with the use of the term "current". All of the above cited states are now failed states, which should give some idea of the value of state religion or state atheism.
    
    I think you missed the essential point which was that religion in today's world, especially Abrahamic religion, is a divisive, bloody instrument of subjugation and domination.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
28. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    9/20/2011 7:09 PM

    I know this is a bit off topic but curiosity is getting the better of me.
    
    I had heard that Hitler was a Christian at some point in his life. But how does that discount his goal of an Atheist state? I mean Red was once a card carrying Christian too.

    
    
    
    
29. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    9/20/2011 7:09 PM

    It is off topic and really has nothing to do with the original discussion and the intent of my subsequent posts. That is the nature of these sorts of threads, and I really have no answer for you.
    
    You may parse my sentences to whatever degree you like to prove whatever point you like, but it still doesn't change the fact that belief in a supernatural being is something that you would scoff at until it gores your particular theological ox.
    
    It also doesn't change the fact that if someone is going to preach incessantly and insist that I believe in their god, they should be able to factually back up why I should. Problem is, they can't.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
30. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    9/20/2011 8:09 PM

    huff said:
    
    You may parse my sentences to whatever degree you like to prove whatever point you like, but it still doesn't change the fact that belief in a supernatural being is something that you would scoff at until it gores your particular theological ox.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    Sorry if my question came off as something other than as intended; wasn't trying to parse or prove a point. Just asking a question and carry a conversation about an interesting topic.