Compensation lately Cancel The title field is required!

1. Lehman James L

   
   7/20/2012 1:07 PM

   Can't believe the ridiculous salaries that are being offered these days. Really makes me appreciate my job. Should not matter where you are, anyone worth their salt is doing the time.

   
   
   
   
2. Sandy Clark

   

   0 posts
   
   7/20/2012 2:07 PM

   I noticed lately that assistant jobs are being advertised for about the same or less than I started my assistants over 12 years ago and they were on the higher range of average back then. I have also seen all local Supt. openings being advertised at numbers well below the departed Supt. We have had very little turnover and a couple of the openings that did occur had new owners. The market has been interesting to say the least.

   
   
   
   
3. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   7/20/2012 3:07 PM

   Sandy Clark, CGCS"]I noticed lately that assistant jobs are being advertised for about the same or less than I started my assistants over 12 years ago and they were on the higher range of average back then. I have also seen all local Supt. openings being advertised at numbers well below the departed Supt. We have had very little turnover and a couple of the openings that did occur had new owners. The market has been interesting to say the least.[/quote
   
   Hmmm.....I'm guessing the salaries that have gone down are all at courses who's budgets have gone up?
   
   Times are tough. Just not the same amount of money going around like there used to be.

   
   
   
   
4. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   7/20/2012 5:07 PM

   Which leads me to the question....why are we still pushing turf programs at every college in the country?

   
   
   
   
5. Hardy Andrew

   
   7/20/2012 5:07 PM

   Great point Steve. We are now down to 3 in ALL of Canada. At onetime there were 7 or 8. My understanding is that enrollment at schools like PSU and MSU are down significantly. That's not a bad thing.
   
   I show my owner the compensation survey and he says "find a place that'll pay you that amount, I won't hold you back"
   
   Happy to work at a place that easily pays the bills and asks questions only when they need to.

   
   
   
   
6. Trevor Monreal

   

   5 posts
   
   7/21/2012 12:07 AM

   Seems like many assistant jobs pay as much as Superintendent possitions.
   That means assistants are more important to superintendents than superintendents are to...whomever?

   
   
   
   
7. McCallum David K

   
   7/21/2012 8:07 AM

   Have had the same thought for many years Steve. Guess those departments are trying to save funding. No real concern or not if the degree is actually worth anything.

   
   
   
   
8. Clay Putnam

   

   33 posts
   
   7/22/2012 6:07 AM

   According to the 2011 Compensation and Benefits Report salaries continue to climb albeit at a slower rate than previous reported years.

   
   
   
   
9. Sandy Clark

   

   0 posts
   
   7/23/2012 3:07 PM

   Steve has a very valid point. I taught for several years at a local community college. The last couple of years before I finally gave it up, we had trouble having enough students to hold the class. We had been through most of the assistants in the area and several of the irrigation and spray techs. They had nowhere to move to and were in the same positions. Our source of new students had dried up. I will be surprised if the college continues the Golf Course and Sports Turf major much longer. They have begun emphasizing sustainability programs which I expect will take the place of the major I taught. A turf class may remain but it will no longer be a major.

   
   
   
   
10. Nicholas Daak

    

    3 posts
    
    7/24/2012 1:07 AM

    I will add my input. I believe just because people come from 4 year schools and interned at courses holding PGA/USGA Tournaments doesn't mean they are qualified for any job. I personally know someone who could ID a dozen different grasses, but doesn't know how to use a quick coupler.
    Just like the NFL Football Draft, kids are getting over paid without professional experience.

    
    
    
    
11. James Schmid

    

    1 posts
    
    7/24/2012 10:07 AM

    Nicholas Daak said: I will add my input. I believe just because people come from 4 year schools and interned at courses holding PGA/USGA Tournaments doesn't mean they are qualified for any job. I personally know someone who could ID a dozen different grasses, but doesn't know how to use a quick coupler.
    Just like the NFL Football Draft, kids are getting over paid without professional experience.

    
    
    What kids are getting overpaid? How much are they getting paid?

    
    
    
    
12. Michael Vogt

    

    2 posts
    
    7/25/2012 8:07 AM

    James:
    
    It sounds cold, but, every professional position that needs to be filled is a commodity. As such, the price for the commodity is what the market will bear. This holds true in most cases for labor, unless you infuse an artificial market force such as a union.

    
    
    
    
13. Wahlin Scott B

    
    7/25/2012 9:07 AM

    Michael Vogt, CGCS said: James:
    
    It sounds cold, but, every professional position that needs to be filled is a commodity. As such, the price for the commodity is what the market will bear. This holds true in most cases or labor, unless you infuse an artificial market force such as a union.

    
    
    Maybe we should start a union.

    
    
    
    
14. James Schmid

    

    1 posts
    
    7/25/2012 11:07 AM

    Michael Vogt, CGCS said: James:
    
    It sounds cold, but, every professional position that needs to be filled is a commodity. As such, the price for the commodity is what the market will bear. This holds true in most cases or labor, unless you infuse an artificial market force such as a union.

    
    
    Thanks. I was trying to find out what the thought process behind Nick's statement that "kids are getting paid too much" was. I actually hold a bachelors degree in economics.

    
    
    
    
15. McCallum David K

    
    7/26/2012 9:07 AM

    Be careful when wishing for more compensation..........sometimes it might bite you in the arse.

    
    
    
    
16. Michael Vogt

    

    2 posts
    
    7/26/2012 10:07 AM

    James Schmid said:

    Michael Vogt, CGCS said: James:
    
    It sounds cold, but, every professional position that needs to be filled is a commodity. As such, the price for the commodity is what the market will bear. This holds true in most cases or labor, unless you infuse an artificial market force such as a union.

    
    
    Thanks. I was trying to find out what the thought process behind Nick's statement that "kids are getting paid too much" was. I actually hold a bachelors degree in economics.

    
    
    James:
    
    I am glad for you that you hold a bachelors degree in economics, that's quite an accomplishment. I was responding to the original post by James Lehman on the fact that salaries are getting ridiculous.

    
    
    
    
17. McDaniel Gregory B

    
    7/27/2012 8:07 PM

    I think what is meant by kids getting paid too much is that if a club is looking for a superintendent, then why do they continue to hire assistants when there are plenty of available superintendents who are unemployed in the field? In these tough economic times, a veteran superintendent would be much better at running a financially strapped club than an assistant from a million plus budget club. A low-level superintendent's job would be a real step up from my current 20k job for example. In a field that is based on attaining 1 position at each golf course and more courses are closing than opening every year, it would stand to reason that if turf schools did not graduate another person for 30 years, the field may still have a glut of qualified people. Instead, greed prevails, power struggles run rampant and a continuing number of young "yes men" are hired to do jobs they are not really qualified for. They know a little about turf, but very little about anything else. I've seen many jobs that pay very well go to assistants when I struggled at around 50k most of my career as a superintendent, so yes, I agree with the idea that the kids are getting paid too much since veteran superintendents rarely even get interviewed and assistants get the jobs.

    
    
    
    
18. Miller Jacob D

    
    8/4/2012 7:08 AM

    Heres the way I look at it. I'm 26. Have been an assistant for nearly 4 years now and will most likely be looking for that pay/position bump here in the next couple years. The reason all the unemployed superintendents out there end up losing the position to guys my age is for a number of reasons. First is because a majority of the older superintendents have no clue how to use technology today... not their fault, just a result of the times they were raised. Second, they maybe dont realize that in this tough time guys my age are willing to do the job for 1/3 less the salary that others are. We look at it as "Well, its this or give up and get paid to flip burgers with no benefits, no bonus, and get paid by the hour." Lets be honest, I'll take a superintendents job or assistant job for less then the next guy before i'll ever go back to getting paid by the hour.
    
    So, in closing, I would say that the compensation lately is pretty good. And anyone that complains about having a job these days is out of their mind. I was told by my mentor Kevin Breen at Lahontan "Jake, do whatever it takes to get the job done." and that's what I've been doing ever since... so far its worked out pretty good.

    
    
    
    
19. Wahlin Scott B

    
    8/4/2012 8:08 AM

    Jacob Miller said: Heres the way I look at it. I'm 26. Have been an assistant for nearly 4 years now and will most likely be looking for that pay/position bump here in the next couple years. The reason all the unemployed superintendents out there end up losing the position to guys my age is for a number of reasons. First is because a majority of the older superintendents have no clue how to use technology today... not their fault, just a result of the times they were raised. Second, they maybe dont realize that in this tough time guys my age are willing to do the job for 1/3 less the salary that others are. We look at it as "Well, its this or give up and get paid to flip burgers with no benefits, no bonus, and get paid by the hour." Lets be honest, I'll take a superintendents job or assistant job for less then the next guy before i'll ever go back to getting paid by the hour.
    
    So, in closing, I would say that the compensation lately is pretty good. And anyone that complains about having a job these days is out of their mind. I was told by my mentor Kevin Breen at Lahontan "Jake, do whatever it takes to get the job done." and that's what I've been doing ever since... so far its worked out pretty good.

    
    
    I don't think it is technology Jake. When you get old you learn that you can fix those kinds of problems with a phone call. It is strictly physical. I could bench press 325# when I was 26, but I cannot do it anymore. It gets harder and harder to pitch in on the physical side of this job, except for DMC and Sandy who will always have the bodies of a 20yos. When I was physically capable I used that as part of my job security plan. That arrow seems to be missing from my quiver now especially in the dog days of summer. I guess if we live by the sword, we go the same way.

    
    
    
    
20. Ronald Conard

    

    4 posts
    
    8/4/2012 11:08 AM

    Jacob Miller said: Heres the way I look at it. I'm 26. Have been an assistant for nearly 4 years now and will most likely be looking for that pay/position bump here in the next couple years. The reason all the unemployed superintendents out there end up losing the position to guys my age is for a number of reasons. First is because a majority of the older superintendents have no clue how to use technology today... not their fault, just a result of the times they were raised. Second, they maybe dont realize that in this tough time guys my age are willing to do the job for 1/3 less the salary that others are. We look at it as "Well, its this or give up and get paid to flip burgers with no benefits, no bonus, and get paid by the hour." Lets be honest, I'll take a superintendents job or assistant job for less then the next guy before i'll ever go back to getting paid by the hour.
    
    So, in closing, I would say that the compensation lately is pretty good. And anyone that complains about having a job these days is out of their mind. I was told by my mentor Kevin Breen at Lahontan "Jake, do whatever it takes to get the job done." and that's what I've been doing ever since... so far its worked out pretty good.

    
    
    Jacob,
    
    You may think you know it all now. I did when I was a puppy too. But I promise you that a seasoned superintendent will save a club far more money over the course of a year than the difference in pay between a vet and a rookie.
    
    Also, remember karma acts in strange ways. You take a job of a superintendent because you are willing to undercut salary, then 10, 15 years later, the same thing happens to you. Stick to your ethics. It's not all about "me".
    
    Good luck.

    
    
    
    
21. James Schmid

    

    1 posts
    
    8/4/2012 12:08 PM

    Ronald Conard, CGCS said:
    
    Jacob,
    
    I promise you that a seasoned superintendent will save a club far more money over the course of a year than the difference in pay between a vet and a rookie. I agree with this
    
    Also, remember karma acts in strange ways. You take a job of a superintendent because you are willing to undercut salary, then 10, 15 years later, the same thing happens to you. Stick to your ethics. It's not all about "me". I'm confused about what this means, should guy with no experience hold out for more money if offered a job and expect to get what somebody with much more experience would expect to get? What does that have to do with ethics?
    
    Good luck.

    
    
    
    
22. Ronald Conard

    

    4 posts
    
    8/4/2012 2:08 PM

    James Schmid said:

    Ronald Conard, CGCS said:
    
    Jacob,
    
    I promise you that a seasoned superintendent will save a club far more money over the course of a year than the difference in pay between a vet and a rookie. I agree with this
    
    Also, remember karma acts in strange ways. You take a job of a superintendent because you are willing to undercut salary, then 10, 15 years later, the same thing happens to you. Stick to your ethics. It's not all about "me". I'm confused about what this means, should guy with no experience hold out for more money if offered a job and expect to get what somebody with much more experience would expect to get? What does that have to do with ethics?
    
    Good luck.

    
    
    A guy can take any job he wants. But it's not ethical to agree to a position, for less money, if someone is currently employed. Maybe I was reading between the lines. In hindsight, my bad.

    
    
    
    
23. McDaniel Gregory B

    
    8/4/2012 9:08 PM

    Jake,
    I'm only 47 and I've owned and updated computers since 1989. I also only know modern irrigation systems having done 2 grow-ins with the first being in 1997. The newest system today is not that much more advanced, just a few more bells and whistles. Besides, you learn new things on the job everyday including all the "new" technology. You just don't have to learn it all at once like someone with no experience does. Wouldn't you rather know almost everything and only have to learn one new thing at a time? Which person is more valuable? The first time that rookie superintendent blows pipe out of the ground he just burned what was saved with his lower salary. What about equipment maintenance and troubleshooting? Those types of things are not learned in a day. Other things like experiencing cold winters, hot summers and what happened and what you learned from them and I could go on and on, but my point is this is a jack of all trades business and experience is extremely valuable, but greatly undervalued. The powers that be just want someone they can control and experience to them means someone who knows too much about "their job" and more importantly whether they know what "they" are doing. It is much better for them to have a rookie superintendent because the rookie will be so worried about their own job and chasing their tail trying to learn so much under fire that they will not be focused on them and neither will anyone else! It is just politics and has nothing to do with actually hiring the best person for the job or for their club. It is pure selfishness on their part. GM's get fired and hired all the time, and in fact they get fired and get better jobs, but superintendent's just get left behind these days.

    
    
    
    
24. James Schmid

    

    1 posts
    
    8/4/2012 10:08 PM

    Gregory McDaniel, CGCS said: Jake,
    Those types of things are not learned in a day. Other things like experiencing cold winters, hot summers and what happened and what you learned from them and I could go on and on, but my point is this is a jack of all trades business and experience is extremely valuable, but greatly undervalued. The powers that be just want someone they can control and experience to them means someone who knows too much about "their job" and more importantly whether they know what "they" are doing. It is much better for them to have a rookie superintendent because the rookie will be so worried about their own job and chasing their tail trying to learn so much under fire that they will not be focused on them and neither will anyone else! It is just politics and has nothing to do with actually hiring the best person for the job or for their club. It is pure selfishness on their part. GM's get fired and hired all the time, and in fact they get fired and get better jobs, but superintendent's just get left behind these days.

    
    
    You sound bitter about this. Why is it the superintendent's business what "they" are doing? Why should the superintendent be worried what "the powers that be" are doing? Last I checked most superintendents are tasked with growing the grass and are not specifically hired to be all up in everyone else's business.

    
    
    
    
25. Rosenthal Gregg

    
    8/5/2012 3:08 AM

    Mr. Wallace,
    
    Normally I do not comment on these type posts but your reply makes me smile this morning as I prepare to go to work! I who have recovered from epilepsy, and brain surgery, now again loving life back to working on the golf course doing what I do best as an assistant Superintendent at a very fine country club in the Chicago area. I am again loving life having done more in my career than many will ever do built/grown-in 5 new courses hosted the Senior Tour, all of which no longer matter to me, just enjoying life now doing what I do best as a team member is my love of life! I am a lucky person who survived a tough time many do not! I came through brain issues that most never recover from! I have a very positive and different attitude toward life and my future than many, look forward to work on a daily basis! Never complain about anything, speak great Spanish again, during my time of seizures I could not remember my Spanish speaking! I now do any job from changing cups, to spraying, raking bunkers, fixing a sprinkler with a smile on my face!!! I love to talk to members when they ask what we are doing and life is great! Never question what or why one has to do something, just get the job done grow good turf and love life!!! Amen...Here in Chicago we will take it easy when the cold weather comes!!!!
    
    Gregg R

    
    
    
    
26. McDaniel Gregory B

    
    8/5/2012 6:08 AM

    James,
    I'm not saying a superintendent is hired to be up in everyone's business, I'm just saying that experienced superintendents do know a lot about the other positions while rookie's do not. The powers that be know this and would rather hire a rookie so they can be the boss of them more easily and not face as much criticism and resistance from a position they consider below them. Why else would dumbing down my resume' and removing my hard-earned letters to make myself look less experienced gain me more recognition when applying for a job?
    Of course I'm bitter, I make 20k a year now and can't get an interview for a position in this business. I lost my career at the peak of my experience and age while having a wife and 2 kids to support. My last job left me with crushing debt that I have yet to pay off, but I have not declared bankruptcy. Debating with the young guys is like talking to a brick wall. I hope the young guys who have the audacity to assume they are more deserving and smarter than the 100's of unemployed supers remember recent threads on the subject years down the road. I know they will if and probably when they end up like so many of us have.

    
    
    
    
27. McDaniel Gregory B

    
    8/5/2012 6:08 AM

    Gregg,
    Good for you, and to my forum buddy Jeff whom I actually ate supper with in Atlanta so many years ago, keep up the good work and never lose your passion and good humor! I miss seeing everybody at the shows, but maybe I'll find a way to make it to one again somewhere down the road.
    
    Greg

    
    
    
    
28. Robert Crockett

    

    4 posts
    
    8/5/2012 4:08 PM

    Jacob Miller said: Heres the way I look at it. I'm 26. Have been an assistant for nearly 4 years now and will most likely be looking for that pay/position bump here in the next couple years. The reason all the unemployed superintendents out there end up losing the position to guys my age is for a number of reasons. First is because a majority of the older superintendents have no clue how to use technology today... not their fault, just a result of the times they were raised. Second, they maybe dont realize that in this tough time guys my age are willing to do the job for 1/3 less the salary that others are. We look at it as "Well, its this or give up and get paid to flip burgers with no benefits, no bonus, and get paid by the hour." Lets be honest, I'll take a superintendents job or assistant job for less then the next guy before i'll ever go back to getting paid by the hour.
    
    So, in closing, I would say that the compensation lately is pretty good. And anyone that complains about having a job these days is out of their mind. I was told by my mentor Kevin Breen at Lahontan "Jake, do whatever it takes to get the job done." and that's what I've been doing ever since... so far its worked out pretty good.

    
    Sounds like you've got the right Idea Jacob. Don't take ruffling some old feathers to heart either. I believe when the Certification first began it only took 2 box tops from cereal boxes......Just kidding...ruffle

    
    
    
    
29. Matthew Neff

    

    0 posts
    
    8/5/2012 7:08 PM

    It does seem as though more assistants have been getting superintendent jobs the last 2 or 3 years but by no means has it been exclusively assistants getting the jobs in my personal experience. I've been an assistant for 8 years and have been getting blanked on superintendent jobs. I've had 4 interviews in the last year and a half and I know that 2 of the jobs went to experienced superintendents and the other 2 went to assistants. While I certainly agree that an experienced superintendent can save a club money and will know and have seen more than a young guy, I think it's a little unfair to assume that a young guy isn't capable of being an effective supeintendent. There's a lot of assistants out there now that are having a hard time moving up and have been in the business for 8 - 10 years or even longer and have a lot more experience than assistants may have had 15 or 20 years ago when it seemed a little more common to move on after 3 or 4 years as an assistant. I want to stress that I'm not trying to disrespect the more experienced guys in this business - most of you guys have forgotten more about grass than I have ever known. I definitely see the argument for hiring an experienced guy over an assistant – 15 or 20 years of doing a job that requires as much knowledge and "feel" as this job does obviously makes an experienced superintendent much more valuable but there's plenty of young guys out there with a lot of strong experience that may not be as green as some might think.

    
    
    
    
30. Ronald Conard

    

    4 posts
    
    8/5/2012 9:08 PM

    Robert Crockett said:
    Sounds like you've got the right Idea Jacob. Don't take ruffling some old feathers to heart either. I believe when the Certification first began it only took 2 box tops from cereal boxes......Just kidding...ruffle

    
    
    *burp*