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STATISM

75 posts
  1. Dennis Cook
    Dennis Cook avatar
    1 posts
    4/14/2012 6:04 AM
    For all of time there has been countries where governments control peoples lives and do everything they can to control more and more. There has been command and control economies since then as well. We have been in existence for 236 years, with our basis being freedom and capitalism, and have passed the rest of the world in that short time. Obama says our system is broken and its going to take time to fix it. if its broken, then why have we prospered so much in those 236 years and become the nation we are today if our system is broken and capitalism doesnt work? Why are the democrats so eager to follow in the paths of all the historical economic failures and doom this country?



  2. Keith Lamb
    Keith Lamb avatar
    3 posts
    4/14/2012 6:04 AM
    What flavored Kool-aid you drinking Dennis? BTW, Kool-aid should not be enjoyed until warm afternoons on he front porch. Not the preferred morning beverage.



  3. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    4/14/2012 7:04 AM
    Dennis Cook said: For all of time there has been countries where governments control peoples lives and do everything they can to control more and more. There has been command and control economies since then as well. We have been in existence for 236 years, with our basis being freedom and capitalism, and have passed the rest of the world in that short time. Obama says our system is broken and its going to take time to fix it. if its broken, then why have we prospered so much in those 236 years and become the nation we are today if our system is broken and capitalism doesnt work? Why are the democrats so eager to follow in the paths of all the historical economic failures and doom this country?

    Like anything that is old, parts start to break down and need to be replaced or re machined. China has been around a long time before the US and it wasn't until they rethought their strategies that they moved forward



  4. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    4/14/2012 7:04 AM
    Dennis Cook said: For all of time there has been countries where governments control peoples lives and do everything they can to control more and more. There has been command and control economies since then as well. We have been in existence for 236 years, with our basis being freedom and capitalism, and have passed the rest of the world in that short time. Obama says our system is broken and its going to take time to fix it. if its broken, then why have we prospered so much in those 236 years and become the nation we are today if our system is broken and capitalism doesnt work? Why are the democrats so eager to follow in the paths of all the historical economic failures and doom this country?


    Statism. I wasn't really sure of the meaning after I realized that the word wasn't Satanism as I first read it.
    For those dullards like me, here is the definition from the Ayn Rand dictionary:

    The political expression of altruism is collectivism or statism, which holds that man's life and work belong to the state—to society, to the group, the gang, the race, the nation—and that the state may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good.

    I must admit, Atlas Shrugged was a good read



  5. Trevor Monreal
    Trevor Monreal avatar
    5 posts
    4/14/2012 8:04 AM
    I think we have prospered for all this time because, as a country, we found favor and have been blessed. Do I think we are being punished by God because of immorality, etc.
    No!
    However, as a country and a society, we are allowing the little "g" (government) to provide direction and guidance (and more as individuals) instead of looking to the big "G".
    Read Deuteronomy 28...



  6. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    4/14/2012 9:04 AM
    Dennis Cook said: For all of time there has been countries where governments control peoples lives and do everything they can to control more and more. There has been command and control economies since then as well. We have been in existence for 236 years, with our basis being freedom and capitalism, and have passed the rest of the world in that short time. Obama says our system is broken and its going to take time to fix it. if its broken, then why have we prospered so much in those 236 years and become the nation we are today if our system is broken and capitalism doesnt work? Why are the democrats so eager to follow in the paths of all the historical economic failures and doom this country?


    If he says the system is broken enough people will start to believe it. (Keith hence drink the kool aid) Policies that he has put in place that if fail only gov. can fix. Make people so dependent on gov. that sitting at home with the cable, cell phones, and computer and wait for their check and assistance.



  7. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    4/14/2012 10:04 AM
    Jon Gansen said:
    If he says the system is broken enough people will start to believe it. (Keith hence drink the kool aid) Policies that he has put in place that if fail only gov. can fix. Make people so dependent on gov. that sitting at home with the cable, cell phones, and computer and wait for their check and assistance.


    Jon, I am sure there are some people out there that are as you just described, but how many are there really? How much money does government assistance come out to? Will it really cover cable, cell phones and computers? Heck I can barely cover those costs. Is it really a situation that most people would want to live in? I can't believe it is an existence that we would live in, even the lowest wage guys on your crew, I'm guessing it isn't easy for them to cover those expenses, but I would hope they are making more then government assistance pays. Do me a favor and find out what it is, maybe I can quit this gig. Also how much percentage of the federal budget is this assistance?

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  8. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    4/14/2012 11:04 AM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Jon Gansen said:
    If he says the system is broken enough people will start to believe it. (Keith hence drink the kool aid) Policies that he has put in place that if fail only gov. can fix. Make people so dependent on gov. that sitting at home with the cable, cell phones, and computer and wait for their check and assistance.


    Jon, I am sure there are some people out there that are as you just described, but how many are there really? How much money does government assistance come out to? Will it really cover cable, cell phones and computers? Heck I can barely cover those costs. Is it really a situation that most people would want to live in? I can't believe it is an existence that we would live in, even the lowest wage guys on your crew, I'm guessing it isn't easy for them to cover those expenses, but I would hope they are making more then government assistance pays. Do me a favor and find out what it is, maybe I can quit this gig. Also how much percentage of the federal budget is this assistance?

    Mel


    Mel in the last six months I have received post cards that advertise that if your a certain income you can receive a cell phone no charge thru gov. For you info the cell phone plan is under Bush Admin. Just started receiving the post cards. Fiber optic lines going in thru rural towns and country funded by the gov. I had cable thru this company and they passed it as an upgrade (not really) but they used this opportunity for them to upgrade my area with new lines (federal stimulus) Dont know which round of stimulus paid for this..



  9. Dennis Cook
    Dennis Cook avatar
    1 posts
    4/16/2012 5:04 AM
    Larry Allan said:
    Dennis Cook said: For all of time there has been countries where governments control peoples lives and do everything they can to control more and more. There has been command and control economies since then as well. We have been in existence for 236 years, with our basis being freedom and capitalism, and have passed the rest of the world in that short time. Obama says our system is broken and its going to take time to fix it. if its broken, then why have we prospered so much in those 236 years and become the nation we are today if our system is broken and capitalism doesnt work? Why are the democrats so eager to follow in the paths of all the historical economic failures and doom this country?

    Like anything that is old, parts start to break down and need to be replaced or re machined. China has been around a long time before the US and it wasn't until they rethought their strategies that they moved forward


    The only reason China started to go the other direction is that they started to promote capitalism and letting people make money freely. The reason our system is so called broken, is the govt keeps medaling in it and screwing up a good thing. Make a policy, watch it fail and make another policy to fix the failed one from before. Yep makes a lot of sense, even when im drinking afternoon koolaid or barley pops.



  10. James Schmid
    James Schmid avatar
    1 posts
    4/16/2012 7:04 AM
    Dennis Cook said:

    The only reason China started to go the other direction is that they started to promote capitalism and letting people make money freely. The reason our system is so called broken, is the govt keeps medaling in it and screwing up a good thing. Make a policy, watch it fail and make another policy to fix the failed one from before. Yep makes a lot of sense, even when im drinking afternoon koolaid or barley pops.


    Dennis- Do you think that China having a national pro-business strategy and an attitude of doing whatever is needed to compete globally has had anything to do with their success? That their willingness to secure resources and trade with opressive regimes throughout the world has played any part in their economic success? Their currency exchange fixing? Their system of promoting the good of the state over the rights of the individual?
    There is no question that promoting capatialism has played a part in their current success, but I think that to say it's the only reason is pretty short sighted.



  11. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    4/16/2012 7:04 AM
    State Capitalism is what China has not western type. Their brand is in the name of the government. They have let foreign investment in but how safe is foreign investment?. Most of the factory workers are lucky if they earn 400.00 a month working seven days a week. China will eventually implode from within. If they allow their people to earn anywhere near a wage in the USA they may no longer be able to compete.



  12. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    4/16/2012 10:04 AM
    Red,
    Atlas Shrugged should be mandatory reading........the rest of Ayn Rand stuff is very heavy duty reading....beyond my intellect.

    And I truly believe, perhaps before my demise I will see everything in this country become a right, instead of a privilege earned. Instead of seeing how good can I be, its now lets sit on the sofa in the a/c, drink a big gulp and wait on the check to come in the mailbox.



  13. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    4/16/2012 10:04 AM
    David McCallum said: Red,
    Atlas Shrugged should be mandatory reading........the rest of Ayn Rand stuff is very heavy duty reading....beyond my intellect.

    And I truly believe, perhaps before my demise I will see everything in this country become a right, instead of a privilege earned. Instead of seeing how good can I be, its now lets sit on the sofa in the a/c, drink a big gulp and wait on the check to come in the mailbox.


    If it ever comes to that there will be no one to pay the bills. The haves will be no more.



  14. Dennis Cook
    Dennis Cook avatar
    1 posts
    4/16/2012 3:04 PM
    James Schmid said:
    Dennis Cook said:

    The only reason China started to go the other direction is that they started to promote capitalism and letting people make money freely. The reason our system is so called broken, is the govt keeps medaling in it and screwing up a good thing. Make a policy, watch it fail and make another policy to fix the failed one from before. Yep makes a lot of sense, even when im drinking afternoon koolaid or barley pops.


    Dennis- Do you think that China having a national pro-business strategy and an attitude of doing whatever is needed to compete globally has had anything to do with their success? That their willingness to secure resources and trade with opressive regimes throughout the world has played any part in their economic success? Their currency exchange fixing? Their system of promoting the good of the state over the rights of the individual?
    There is no question that promoting capatialism has played a part in their current success, but I think that to say it's the only reason is pretty short sighted.


    It would be nice if this country started doing things to compete globally. But, instead we make it more expensive to do business here so businesses leave. As far as China, they are still oppressive to the people, but when they started promoting capitalism, that is when they really thrived



  15. Dennis Cook
    Dennis Cook avatar
    1 posts
    4/16/2012 3:04 PM
    Jon Gansen said: State Capitalism is what China has not western type. Their brand is in the name of the government. They have let foreign investment in but how safe is foreign investment?. Most of the factory workers are lucky if they earn 400.00 a month working seven days a week. China will eventually implode from within. If they allow their people to earn anywhere near a wage in the USA they may no longer be able to compete.


    And guess what? They have people beating down the door for those jobs over there. People are willing to work for it and they can get by on it, then why stop it? Because you would rather your govt be oppressive to the business and state you have to pay a certain wage, even if market forces can't sustain it. We have gotten so accustomed to the entitlement mentality that a lot of people wont even work for minimum wage because they can collect just as much or more on govt. assistance. What happened to being grateful that someone will pay you to do something and taking pride in the fact that you are working? Now a lot of people in this country say that certain type of work is not worth doing. The only reason its not worth doing is that govt has made it more appealing to stay at home. Another example of govt screwing something up



  16. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    4/16/2012 4:04 PM
    Dennis Cook said:
    Jon Gansen said: State Capitalism is what China has not western type. Their brand is in the name of the government. They have let foreign investment in but how safe is foreign investment?. Most of the factory workers are lucky if they earn 400.00 a month working seven days a week. China will eventually implode from within. If they allow their people to earn anywhere near a wage in the USA they may no longer be able to compete.


    And guess what? They have people beating down the door for those jobs over there. People are willing to work for it and they can get by on it, then why stop it? Because you would rather your govt be oppressive to the business and state you have to pay a certain wage, even if market forces can't sustain it. We have gotten so accustomed to the entitlement mentality that a lot of people wont even work for minimum wage because they can collect just as much or more on govt. assistance. What happened to being grateful that someone will pay you to do something and taking pride in the fact that you are working? Now a lot of people in this country say that certain type of work is not worth doing. The only reason its not worth doing is that govt has made it more appealing to stay at home. Another example of govt screwing something up


    Dennis, and I know I am making a broad statement here, but what I am interpreting as your statement, you complain about our government and it's rules against businesses, but China's government in the name of business can oppress their people? I understand they are raising the standard of living there compared to what it was, but I also get from you that here in America we should lower the standard of living by lowering wages and being grateful someone offers out a job at whatever wage? The way I take your comments is in China it is the government that is oppressive, here it's the businesses.....they will and become rich on the backs of the working people just like China's government gets rich on the backs of their working people.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  17. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    4/16/2012 4:04 PM
    Dennis Cook said:
    Jon Gansen said: State Capitalism is what China has not western type. Their brand is in the name of the government. They have let foreign investment in but how safe is foreign investment?. Most of the factory workers are lucky if they earn 400.00 a month working seven days a week. China will eventually implode from within. If they allow their people to earn anywhere near a wage in the USA they may no longer be able to compete.


    And guess what? They have people beating down the door for those jobs over there. People are willing to work for it and they can get by on it, then why stop it? Because you would rather your govt be oppressive to the business and state you have to pay a certain wage, even if market forces can't sustain it. We have gotten so accustomed to the entitlement mentality that a lot of people wont even work for minimum wage because they can collect just as much or more on govt. assistance. What happened to being grateful that someone will pay you to do something and taking pride in the fact that you are working? Now a lot of people in this country say that certain type of work is not worth doing. The only reason its not worth doing is that govt has made it more appealing to stay at home. Another example of govt screwing something up


    I dont think you understand what I meant. It is not true capitalism as we know it. It is government run for the state, they may have private business but gov. lends the money and controls them.
    They are happy to work to eat. Large companies house their help at the factory. Long working hours, seven days a week. I agree with you on entitlements and government getting the heck out of the way, but using China as a model. Seriously?

    http://www.clb.org.hk/en/node/110040



  18. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    4/16/2012 9:04 PM
    Something we agree on Jon, you said it much better then I did though.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  19. Dennis Cook
    Dennis Cook avatar
    1 posts
    4/17/2012 5:04 AM
    Jon Gansen said:
    Dennis Cook said:
    Jon Gansen said: State Capitalism is what China has not western type. Their brand is in the name of the government. They have let foreign investment in but how safe is foreign investment?. Most of the factory workers are lucky if they earn 400.00 a month working seven days a week. China will eventually implode from within. If they allow their people to earn anywhere near a wage in the USA they may no longer be able to compete.


    And guess what? They have people beating down the door for those jobs over there. People are willing to work for it and they can get by on it, then why stop it? Because you would rather your govt be oppressive to the business and state you have to pay a certain wage, even if market forces can't sustain it. We have gotten so accustomed to the entitlement mentality that a lot of people wont even work for minimum wage because they can collect just as much or more on govt. assistance. What happened to being grateful that someone will pay you to do something and taking pride in the fact that you are working? Now a lot of people in this country say that certain type of work is not worth doing. The only reason its not worth doing is that govt has made it more appealing to stay at home. Another example of govt screwing something up


    I dont think you understand what I meant. It is not true capitalism as we know it. It is government run for the state, they may have private business but gov. lends the money and controls them.
    They are happy to work to eat. Large companies house their help at the factory. Long working hours, seven days a week. I agree with you on entitlements and government getting the heck out of the way, but using China as a model. Seriously?

    http://www.clb.org.hk/en/node/110040


    John, I did not use China as a model, Larry did. I think it was in the third post to this thread. I was simply elaborating on the capitalistic aspect of it. I believe they are very oppressive to their people. I also believe that the US is very oppressive to business. Allowing people to create a business and thrive is what put this country where it is today. Why would anyone want a government that stifles that? As far as wages, market forces usually take care of that. If there is a large percent of the population willing to do a certain job, then the market would pay slightly less for that job. If there is a job no one is willing to do because of the difficulty or time or nastiness, then the market would force that business owner to up the pay until someone was willing to do it. It works out. By trying to interject govt control, we are going to end up hurting our standard of living in the long run.



  20. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    4/17/2012 7:04 AM
    Dennis Cook said:
    Jon Gansen said:
    Dennis Cook said:
    Jon Gansen said: State Capitalism is what China has not western type. Their brand is in the name of the government. They have let foreign investment in but how safe is foreign investment?. Most of the factory workers are lucky if they earn 400.00 a month working seven days a week. China will eventually implode from within. If they allow their people to earn anywhere near a wage in the USA they may no longer be able to compete.


    And guess what? They have people beating down the door for those jobs over there. People are willing to work for it and they can get by on it, then why stop it? Because you would rather your govt be oppressive to the business and state you have to pay a certain wage, even if market forces can't sustain it. We have gotten so accustomed to the entitlement mentality that a lot of people wont even work for minimum wage because they can collect just as much or more on govt. assistance. What happened to being grateful that someone will pay you to do something and taking pride in the fact that you are working? Now a lot of people in this country say that certain type of work is not worth doing. The only reason its not worth doing is that govt has made it more appealing to stay at home. Another example of govt screwing something up



    I dont think you understand what I meant. It is not true capitalism as we know it. It is government run for the state, they may have private business but gov. lends the money and controls them.
    They are happy to work to eat. Large companies house their help at the factory. Long working hours, seven days a week. I agree with you on entitlements and government getting the heck out of the way, but using China as a model. Seriously?

    http://www.clb.org.hk/en/node/110040


    John, I did not use China as a model, Larry did. I think it was in the third post to this thread. I was simply elaborating on the capitalistic aspect of it. I believe they are very oppressive to their people. I also believe that the US is very oppressive to business. Allowing people to create a business and thrive is what put this country where it is today. Why would anyone want a government that stifles that? As far as wages, market forces usually take care of that. If there is a large percent of the population willing to do a certain job, then the market would pay slightly less for that job. If there is a job no one is willing to do because of the difficulty or time or nastiness, then the market would force that business owner to up the pay until someone was willing to do it. It works out. By trying to interject govt control, we are going to end up hurting our standard of living in the long run.


    Sorry about that Dennis.. I agree. Larry c'mon seriously???



  21. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    4/17/2012 11:04 AM
    Jon Gansen said:
    Dennis Cook said:
    Jon Gansen said: State Capitalism is what China has not western type. Their brand is in the name of the government. They have let foreign investment in but how safe is foreign investment?. Most of the factory workers are lucky if they earn 400.00 a month working seven days a week. China will eventually implode from within. If they allow their people to earn anywhere near a wage in the USA they may no longer be able to compete.


    And guess what? They have people beating down the door for those jobs over there. People are willing to work for it and they can get by on it, then why stop it? Because you would rather your govt be oppressive to the business and state you have to pay a certain wage, even if market forces can't sustain it. We have gotten so accustomed to the entitlement mentality that a lot of people wont even work for minimum wage because they can collect just as much or more on govt. assistance. What happened to being grateful that someone will pay you to do something and taking pride in the fact that you are working? Now a lot of people in this country say that certain type of work is not worth doing. The only reason its not worth doing is that govt has made it more appealing to stay at home. Another example of govt screwing something up


    I dont think you understand what I meant. It is not true capitalism as we know it. It is government run for the state, they may have private business but gov. lends the money and controls them.
    They are happy to work to eat. Large companies house their help at the factory. Long working hours, seven days a week. I agree with you on entitlements and government getting the heck out of the way, but using China as a model. Seriously?

    http://www.clb.org.hk/en/node/110040

    Funny how what comes around goes around. Low wages, company store, company owned accommodation. Pretty much the US economy a century ago



  22. Dennis Cook
    Dennis Cook avatar
    1 posts
    4/17/2012 12:04 PM
    Larry, our economy is going the other now. Most of our manufacturing sectors, the labor has priced itself right out of the market and the market left. Its happening in other sectors of our economy as well. Why the heck do you think you get someone in India when you call customer service now a days



  23. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    4/17/2012 12:04 PM
    Larry Allan said:
    Jon Gansen said:
    Dennis Cook said:
    Jon Gansen said: State Capitalism is what China has not western type. Their brand is in the name of the government. They have let foreign investment in but how safe is foreign investment?. Most of the factory workers are lucky if they earn 400.00 a month working seven days a week. China will eventually implode from within. If they allow their people to earn anywhere near a wage in the USA they may no longer be able to compete.


    And guess what? They have people beating down the door for those jobs over there. People are willing to work for it and they can get by on it, then why stop it? Because you would rather your govt be oppressive to the business and state you have to pay a certain wage, even if market forces can't sustain it. We have gotten so accustomed to the entitlement mentality that a lot of people wont even work for minimum wage because they can collect just as much or more on govt. assistance. What happened to being grateful that someone will pay you to do something and taking pride in the fact that you are working? Now a lot of people in this country say that certain type of work is not worth doing. The only reason its not worth doing is that govt has made it more appealing to stay at home. Another example of govt screwing something up


    I dont think you understand what I meant. It is not true capitalism as we know it. It is government run for the state, they may have private business but gov. lends the money and controls them.
    They are happy to work to eat. Large companies house their help at the factory. Long working hours, seven days a week. I agree with you on entitlements and government getting the heck out of the way, but using China as a model. Seriously?

    http://www.clb.org.hk/en/node/110040

    Funny how what comes around goes around. Low wages, company store, company owned accommodation. Pretty much the US economy a century ago


    I think you make a good point, but only if they were a Democracy. Democracy enabled things to change. Under a Communist leadership change comes only when the government will allow it.



  24. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    4/17/2012 1:04 PM
    Jon Gansen said:
    Larry Allan said:
    http://www.clb.org.hk/en/node/110040

    Funny how what comes around goes around. Low wages, company store, company owned accommodation. Pretty much the US economy a century ago


    I think you make a good point, but only if they were a Democracy. Democracy enabled things to change. Under a Communist leadership change comes only when the government will allow it.


    I agree with the point Red is making, and with Jon as well, but the question I ask is this, democracy enabled things to change, how was that done? Usually I believe it was done by the government, what with labor standards, and other legislation that was passed. So I ask those that condemn government involvement, would we have still have had the company stores and stuff if government wouldn't have put in regulations? Wasn't there similar disparities in wages and wealth back in those days too? I also know there are lots of things that changed because of market pressures and customers habits as well, along with a host of other inputs. Of course that's just my opinion.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  25. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    4/17/2012 1:04 PM
    Dennis Cook said: And guess what? They have people beating down the door for those jobs over there. People are willing to work for it and they can get by on it, then why stop it?


    Apparently the Chinese people are tired of it.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/opinion/chinese-labor-cheap-no-more.html



  26. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    4/17/2012 2:04 PM
    I hate always being accused of bringing up Star Trek analogize to make a point, but here goes. The Prime Directive must be fully understood.
    Starfleet's General Order #1, is the most prominent guiding principle of the United Federation of Planets. The Prime Directive dictates that there can be no interference with the internal development of alien civilizations.

    This is where the US always goes wrong. They believe they can dictate capitalism, democracy, human rights on un advanced nations. These are things that develop naturally over time as civilizations move forward. China's human rights, pay levels, working conditions will evolve, with time, just as your did. So will the Middle East (although on a much longer time frame)

    One day the US will evolve to this understanding much in the same way as StarFleet did. It just takes time.

    There is however one exception to the rule:

    The only stated exception to the Prime Directive is the Omega Directive, in which a captain is authorized to take any means to destroy Omega Molecules when detected. Whenever the Omega Directive is in force, the Prime Directive is effectively rescinded



  27. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    4/17/2012 4:04 PM
    Nice, Red, don't know if some of the younger ones will get it, just like last night when Family Guy was on and Stewie was giving his Teddy Bear a funeral like Spock got in Star Trek III (I think that was the right one), my son told me he didn't get the scene.

    Scott, I think that is a good article, makes me want to rethink some of what I said a couple of post ago with government intervening somewhat. I think they play a role, but as was mentioned also businesses having to raise their pay to compete for workers. I am trying to see both sides of this. I guess my fallback is, if businesses didn't take advantage of their resources (people and materials) the government wouldn't have to step in. I will say sometimes government might step in when it probably shouldn't but some squeaky wheel is probably getting greased when it does. And that works both ways, for labor and management, heck if it wasn't for labor unions lobbying, the regular workforce couldn't afford to lobby for protection and safety issues. Just my opinion on the issue.

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  28. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    4/17/2012 5:04 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Jon Gansen said:
    Larry Allan said:
    http://www.clb.org.hk/en/node/110040

    Funny how what comes around goes around. Low wages, company store, company owned accommodation. Pretty much the US economy a century ago


    I think you make a good point, but only if they were a Democracy. Democracy enabled things to change. Under a Communist leadership change comes only when the government will allow it.


    I agree with the point Red is making, and with Jon as well, but the question I ask is this, democracy enabled things to change, how was that done? Usually I believe it was done by the government, what with labor standards, and other legislation that was passed. So I ask those that condemn government involvement, would we have still have had the company stores and stuff if government wouldn't have put in regulations? Wasn't there similar disparities in wages and wealth back in those days too? I also know there are lots of things that changed because of market pressures and customers habits as well, along with a host of other inputs. Of course that's just my opinion.

    Mel

    By The People for The People. You are right Mel our government implements laws and regulation and to some degree now, strangulation. Would civil rights have gone thru with just government? It took the people to influence the way it went. There are always consequences in our gov.. If you dont like the way things are going vote em out and vice versa. Now the kicker is if the majority become entitled by the government what happens then??

    Red, China is how many centuries older than the USA and yet the people are regulated to one child, restrictions on media, pollution is a big problem for their environment, hazardous working conditions with little pay to name a few. USA is 236 years old weve come a long way baby. At this rate China may become similar to us in another 4000 years. If this were star trek they would be the klingons that dont play nice with the galaxy.

    By the way interesting you using Star Trek and Mel using Family Guy.



  29. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    4/17/2012 5:04 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Jon Gansen said:
    Larry Allan said:
    http://www.clb.org.hk/en/node/110040

    Funny how what comes around goes around. Low wages, company store, company owned accommodation. Pretty much the US economy a century ago


    I think you make a good point, but only if they were a Democracy. Democracy enabled things to change. Under a Communist leadership change comes only when the government will allow it.


    I agree with the point Red is making, and with Jon as well, but the question I ask is this, democracy enabled things to change, how was that done? Usually I believe it was done by the government, what with labor standards, and other legislation that was passed. So I ask those that condemn government involvement, would we have still have had the company stores and stuff if government wouldn't have put in regulations? Wasn't there similar disparities in wages and wealth back in those days too? I also know there are lots of things that changed because of market pressures and customers habits as well, along with a host of other inputs. Of course that's just my opinion.

    Mel

    By The People for The People. You are right Mel our government implements laws and regulation and to some degree now, strangulation. Would civil rights have gone thru with just government? It took the people to influence the way it went. There are always consequences in our gov.. If you dont like the way things are going vote em out and vice versa. Now the kicker is if the majority become entitled by the government what happens then??

    Red, China is how many centuries older than the USA and yet the people are regulated to one child, restrictions on media, pollution is a big problem for their environment, hazardous working conditions with little pay to name a few. USA is 236 years old weve come a long way baby. At this rate China may become similar to us in another 4000 years. If this were star trek they would be the klingons that dont play nice with the galaxy.

    By the way interesting you using Star Trek and Mel using Family Guy.



  30. Dennis Cook
    Dennis Cook avatar
    1 posts
    4/18/2012 5:04 AM
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said:
    Dennis Cook said: And guess what? They have people beating down the door for those jobs over there. People are willing to work for it and they can get by on it, then why stop it?


    Apparently the Chinese people are tired of it.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/opinion/chinese-labor-cheap-no-more.html


    This article almost makes by point for me, in a round about way. It states that companies are having to pay more, because people arent willing to work in those conditions for low pay or their is not enough people in the labor force to fill the number of jobs available. This says market forces work. If their is competition for labor, wages will go up. If its a crappy job and people dont want to do it, the company will have to pay more to get people to work there. So wages are going up in this instance, WITHOUT GOVT. INVOLVEMENT.

    As far as labor unions and such, government did not develop these, people did out of necessity. It has just been unfortunate that labor unions have gotten so powerful that whatever they say goes and its tough for the business to have any say.



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